Talk:Man from Curiosity Shop

Same Guy?

I know that many think that the Curiosity Shop Guy runs both the Shop and the Trading Post. However, during the Kafei and Anju quest, it is possible to look in the Shop from the backroom and see the Curiosity Shop Guy in there. At the same time, the Trading post is being run by the normal guy. Since a person can't be in two places at once, the Curiosity Shop and the Trading Post are not run by the same person. This is not a big step for the characters to be different people. The Malon counterpart was split into Cremia and Romani.--Matt 14:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Start the Kafei & Anju quest. When Kafei gives you the pendent, talk to him again and do what he says. After nightfall, but before 9PM, you can look into the Curiosity shop and see the Curiosity Shop Guy there. Now run to the Trading Post and go in. The normal guy is in there.--Matt 02:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Given that the Trading Post Guy's absence still correlates with the opening of the Curiosity Shop, it's more than likely that they are one and the same. The Kafei & Anju evidence you presented is likely a development error. -- Fire Keaton 10:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely, Fire keaton. Though I'll have to look into it, I believe there is a man in southwest Termina field (as close to Great Bay as you can see) visible from the telescope, who stands (though he isn't itching) wearing the same clothes and with a similar appearance to the Trading Post man/curiosity shop man. This is visible on the second day (late in the day, probably about 4:30) and is near the vicinity of the area of the Takkuri. Coincidence? --Stalkid 03:18, 12 August 2010 (EDT) (I can't get a proper screenshot, but at the very least I can photograph the screen as proof. Sketchy, I know, but it should be sufficient at least for ZW members.)

A screen photo is sufficient for me ;) Jeangabin 07:53, 18 August 2010 (EDT)

I'll try to have it by tomorrow. --Stalkid (P T) 07:57, 18 August 2010 (EDT)

OK, he is in two places at the same time, but the third day you can also found the part-timer at the trading post and in the field at the same time, so this shouldn't be taken as a clue.(SilverArcher 07:54, 18 September 2010 (EDT))

Accuracy tag

Exactly what here is being disputed? I don't notice anything off about the article. --Ando (T) 02:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well the last edit was:

03:02, 5 May 2008 Matt (Talk | contribs | block) (1,817 bytes) (This article is written in a way that assumes an unconfirmed fact to be true, adding accuracy tag)

So... I dunno. maybe the thing with the link between the Curiosity Shop/Trading Post, maybe the connection with Kafei, maybe the reference to the Fishing Hole Guy in OoT... When the tag's added it should really be stated here what the issue is. --Adam 12:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I said it twice in the above section. There is insufficient evidence to say that the Curiosity Shop Guy and the Trading Post Guy are one and the same. And as I said, it is not that hard to believe that they are different people. Cremia and Romani are different people, and they are both a Malon counterpart.--Matt 12:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Cremia and Romani are based on two different models of the same OoT character, Malon in the Child time and Malon in the Adult time. A better comparison would the three models of the Gorman Brothers which are based on Ingo, but they would still be vastly different variations from one another. One could argue that the Curiosity Shop Guy and the Trade Post Guy are based on two models of the Fishing Hole Guy in that one is bald and the other isn't, but if you were to compare the Trade Post Guy to the Fishing Hole Guy in Child time, one would take notice of certain variations that extend far past the graphical improvement from OoT to MM. The Trade Post Guy's hair was modified to look more like a wig than actual hair. Romani and Cremia are differentiated by time, the Gorman Brothers are differentiated by wardrobe, but the Curiosity Shop Guy and the Trade Post Guy are simply differentiated by a wig and a pair of shades. Though it doesn't outright show that they are one and the same, the game pretty much implies it to a fault. Anyways for them to be two separate characters would no purpose for any of the game's sidequests, in contrast both the Romani Sisters and the Gorman Brothers do serve a purpose. -- Fire Keaton 10:45, 2 June 2008

The Curiosity Shop Guy gives Link the Keaton Mask, and the Express Letter to Mama, and tells Link where to go to help Kafei. He is not a minor character.
Also, there already is concrete in-game evidence that the Curiosity Shop Guy and the Trading Post Guy are not the same person. Most-likely, it is a joke on the developer's part. Make strong suggestions that two characters are the same but they actually aren't. Developer jokes like that are a very common thing in video games.--Matt 17:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Not battling here, just curious: What is this "concrete in-game evidence". I don't remember any. :O --Ando 17:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No offense Ando. But do you even read the talk page before posting? It's at the top. No, it isn't a development error. It has to do with the character scheduling. That is a very hard thing to mess up on a semi-major character, especially when there are only a couple dozen or so scheduled characters to work with.--Matt 17:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Haha, not really. But in this case yes. :P I don't know, really it could go either way. I do find it a little hard to believe that they would have made a scheduling mistake considering the amount of detail that went into the game, but... I suppose a mistake has to be made somewhere. :/ Nothing's perfect. So this is one of those things that, without further evidence, I'd say is up to personal belief. Perhaps we should decide what goes into the article, though. Maybe a "it's strongly suggested that they're the same person, but given blah blah blah, they may not be"? --Ando 17:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the reason for the tag. The article was written assuming them to be the same. Even though it can't really be proven either way. I knew I should not have rewritten the article without an agreement here.--Matt 17:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well if you feel like editing it with something neutral, go on ahead. Unless you want to wait for others' input? --Ando 17:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning both possibilities is probably the best middle ground to go with. But I'd still be willing to bet ten bucks that the developers would confirm them as one and the same. It's almost as unlikely as Beedle and the Rarities Merchant being two different people. --Fire Keaton 01:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe I forgot this! These guys have completely different personalities. The Trading Shop guy is nicer. He likes Goron Link and Zora Link. But the Curiosity Shop Guy tells them to come back "Half past never!" If these guys are the same person, then that is one serious case of split-personality.--Matt 06:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Running a pawn shop and a general goods store requires two different attitudes. A persona mask if you will. Just because the guy acts one way in the Trading Shop and another way in the Curiosity Shop doesn't necessarily mean that he has a split personality. It could just mean that he wears a different face for each part of his life. It's kind of like real life actually. You change your attitude depending on the context of the situation. -- Fire Keaton 20:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

While there is some truth in what you said, it does not adequately explain the personality differences. Those differences are far too extreame. Dissociative Identity Disorder (also known as having a split personality) is a condition in which a single person displays multiple distinct identities or personalities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. Among the signs is having multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs which are dissimilar to each other. This is an exact match. It is highly unlikely that this is one person "acting" like two different people. It either is two people, or one with a split personality.--Matt 00:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not acting, it's common social phenomena. You don't talk to your co-worker as you would your kid. I suggest you watch Nicholas Cage's "Lord of War" and read Gladwell's "The Tipping Point". People can have drastically different behaviors depending on the context. Shady business requires a shady attitude. You can't treat customers who comes to a pawnshop the same way as customers who come to common vending shop. The two businesses attract very different clients. You see those iron bars in the Curiosity Shop? They're there for a reason. The Curiosity Shop Guy and the Trading Shop Guy being one and the same is MM's further demonstration of the intricacies in these seemingly everyday people. I'd say it fits the whole mask theme of Majora's Mask rather well. -- Fire Keaton 0:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I know what your saying. But your taking the idea way too far. While this would be an interesting solution, it just is not the case. Nintendo would not waste time on making a person who acts like this. There would be too many conditional statements to write. Like if the character is here then he says this, and if there he says that. That adds up to quite a bit of waste, especially for a nonessential character. Making them two characters would make all the coding shorter and less complex. It is not hard to imagine what Nintendo did. This is a game, not the real world. Games made around the year 2000 were not that complex. Newer games might have something like this, but it just isn't Nintendo's style. Nintendo likes to save as much space for sounds and graphics on it's games as possible. They're not going to write an unnecessarily complex code for a nonessential character.--Matt 04:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You make it sound like character is something people program in games, when the truth is that it dictates what they program. Everything I described doesn't need to be programmed in the game, it just needs to be on the mind of the programmers. Everything you encounter in a game is basically dolls designed to give the illusion of a story. In fact that's all there is to a video game code. There's no actual value in losing all of your hearts, it just triggers when the game shows a death scene and a "game over" screen. All of the "characters" in Majora's Mask are dolls with scripted programming of what to display depending on the action or inaction of the player. There aren't too many "conditional statements" because it is all written down for each character of what to in the the three day cycle (the programmed device that in fact makes it possible there not be too many "conditional statements"). Ideas are conveyed by what the game is programmed to display. The Trading Post Guy is programmed to appear whenever the player enters the Trading Post before 9 PM, afterwards another character model with different dialogue but the same function is to take his place. Meanwhile at 10, the player has access to the Curiosity Shop, were by he encounters the character model of the Curiosity Shop Guy. Both models strongly resemble one another and given the time discretion in their assigned encounters, it strongly implies they are supposed to represent the same character. It isn't programmed that they are the same character, it is programmed to imply that they are the same character. Hence for them to be one and the same would be no more complex, program wise, than if they were different. But idea wise, for them to be one and the same places more emphasis on the experience of the game than if they were to be different characters. If the latter is the case, it never had any bearing plot wise in any of the side quests of the game, making it a non-essential plot device. Quite frankly Occam's Razor shreds the likelihood of it being the case for that reason alone. -- Fire Keaton 22:55, 7 June 2008

Okay, hold up here. I used to be all for the "They're the same dude" argument, but to test a theory I pulled up Majora's Mask just now. I thought "Hey, if the Trading Post guy IS the Curiosity Shop guy (...with hair), then talking to him should add him to my Bomber's Notebook, yes?" So I went and completed the challenge to get the Notebook. I went and talked to the guy and... nothing. He wasn't added. I'd say that that's pretty definitive proof (I mean, if they were the same guy, why would he only be added to the Notebook SOMEtimes?). --Ando 04:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A simple answer! Perhaps we could end this loop. It is streaching things to say that they are the same person now. I guess that there was concrete in-game evidence after all. Okay, not exactly concrete but really strong evidence anyway. Putting this together with the fact that they are both in their respective buildings at the same time from 6:00PM to 9:00PM and that they have different personalities, it is highly unlikely that they are the same person.--Matt 04:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

How is it "highly unlikely"? Because the programmers possibly forgot to change the placement of the Curiosity Shop Guy in a scripted event based on the time of day? I'm sorry but you can't audaciously make that claim especially when you haven't sufficiently refuted the evidence that I provided. The way I see it, either scenario is possible. Just edit the article to include them both theories and be done with it. --Fire Keaton 11:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll make revisions. When I'm done, check it out and see if it is neutral enough.--Matt 15:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on it right now. The article is going to be much bigger. For reasons of being able to differentiate who is being referred to, I'm making a section for the Curiosity Shop Guy and one for the Trading Post Guy. After that will be a section explaining the possibility of them being the same person. There will be some references. It might take a little long for me to finish it. First I'll make the article Trading Post Guy and have it redirect to this article. The redirect won't work until I am done!--Matt 15:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Fire Keaton is right. Common sense should tell you they're clearly intended to be the same person. There's a lot of evidence pointing this, whereas the only reason you have to think they're different persons (being able to see him in the curiosity shop while doing Kafei/Anju quest when he should be in the trading spot) is obviously a oversight on the programmers' part. I mean, it makes NO SENSE for him to be in the curiosity shop like that while it's closed. - Dere 14:41, 4 February 2012 (EST)

But he isn't inside the curiosity shop all the time, he only appears there after 6. That isn't an oversight it's an intentional implement. If it was an oversight then he would have permanently been in the Curiosity Shop. If they wanted it so that he only appears there at a certain time then they would have completely prevented him from appearing when looking in from the other side Don Lark Kiin 15:15, 4 February 2012 (EST)

I haven't posted on here in quite some time, and this discussion seems pretty dead, but I really fail to see how any evidence of them being different people was presented. The fact that it didn't activate in the bomber's notebook is because they are coded as two different characters in the game, with different models, etc. It would have required additional coding to have the notebook trigger on either model, making it a probable oversight. In addition, it may even have been an intentional difference, due to the way in which the notebook lists the name for the character: If the player got the notebook updated from talking to either character model, it would have been confusing, had the player not run into/known about, the curiosity shop yet. Conclusive, hard evidence of them being different would be them in the same place, at the same time. This never occurs, and considering that people can all be observed to behave differently than they would have at those times if you use the telescope to view people, such as skullkid reacting ONLY to you looking at him through the telescope, and other similar scenes, the same situation can be extended to kafei's peekhole. In addition, the reason that you can view that he's in that shop at those times is so you can understand what you're looking at. It is possible that younger players may fail to make the connection to the curiosity shop being that particular location. The presence of the owner gives additional visual cues as to the location you're looking at, allowing you to figure it out. IIRC, you can only see the exchange between the thief and the curiosity shop man by being physically inside the shop, not from kafei's peekhole. The visual clue of the owner, lets you know where to go to find out who the grinning theif might be, if you haven't put it together yet, which is one of the routes that will be able to lead the player through to his hideout in ikana canyon, where he can be found prancing around at certain times. Being able to piece all that together may be possible without it being so overt, but, because of the nature of zelda games, they make it so there are several ways to figure out where to go next in the anju-kafei quest. This gives motive for the developer's placement of the models, and if you want an "in game" explanation of why they're in two places at once, merely observe that they could move back and forth between the locations as you do. The fact that people do behave differently depending on how you observe them in game throws out any credence to the idea that just because in two different run throughs of the same 3-day cycle, you can find the two character models in the different places, doesn't mean they aren't the same person. Based on his mannerisms, several other pieces of anecdotal evidence (things people say in reaction to various masks, times of day when he's working), and that the only difference between the two characters is a wig and shades, its pretty overt that the developers intended the two models to be the same character. In code, I have no doubt they are handled separately, but it seems clear that they were intended to be two different models of the same guy. Magnus orion 15:58, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Two different pieces of information regarding his dual personality.

I decided that I would do a little investigating myself on this subject, and I made some unmentioned observations. They are opposing observations, but they may be important. If you talk to the trading post dude while wearing Kafei's mask he says something like "I don't know that kid." That is interesting because only the Curiosity Shop Guy and possibly the mayor know he has been turned into a kid, while the rest think he is an adult. However, at the end credits you can see the Curiosity Shop Guy at the wedding. Now, if I were him I would probably be in my Trading Post garb so people wouldn't know I was the seller of stolen goods. I mean, wouldn't that be the point of his disguise in the first place? NintenJoe231 00:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)Excellence!

The first point is actually pretty excellent -- not sure I ever noticed that. Regarding the second point, well, it's fairly clear he has no problem with letting you know that he sells stolen goods (he only mentions it every other sentence). Does the Trading Post guy appear in the credits as well, or is it just the Curiosity Shop guy? Because if not, well... It's not conclusive evidence, but it's at the very least another piece of something to suspect. User:Ando/sig 04:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

One more thing. I talked to the part time guy with the stone mask on, and not realizing I was there, he said "We don't get many customers, so why does the boss have so much money?" This points to shop guy and curiosity guy being the same.NintenJoe231 19:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Moving this page to Man from Curiosity Shop

Could this page be moved to Man from Curiosity Shop instead? I tried doing it myself but it wouldn't let me, probably because the redirect page leads here. The Bombers' Notebook calls him the Man from Curiosity Shop, which is a more accurate and official name than "Curiosity Shop Guy." Thanks. Dany36 23:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

What is going on here?

Seems like this page was created under speculation that these two men were one and the same, which does not, under any circumstances warrant a merger. I say we consider the legitimacy of this page and opt for a split until there is conclusive evidence that they are one in the same.User:Cipriano 119/sig 05:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes it was made under that assumption. I brought this up before and changed it to about how it is at the time of this post. It was a compromise because it didn't seem people wanted to split then. I still stand by the opinion I had before. To sum it up I say split the article. There's nothing really proving they're the same. Best to go on the side of caution and split 'em up.User:Matt/sig 04:20, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yup, a split would be good. Go for it.User:Mandi/sig 04:25, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Childhood friends?

I'm not finding it likely that they were childhood friends, as his physical appearance is that of a middle-aged man of about Fourty. Kafei is probably the same age as Anju, seeing as how they knew eachother as children, so I would guess that (by Anju's physical appearance and the fact that she has a living Grandmother) he is about Twenty. I think that, given the above information, The Curiousity Shop Man is a sort of uncle-figure to Kafei. On the flipside, though, this would leave no clue as to the reason for the relation between the two. --Stalkid 14:36, 9 August 2010 (EDT)

Yess, I think the same. Jeangabin 07:46, 10 August 2010 (EDT)

Name

Actually I'm not too set on this name anymore there are actually three references to this guy's name:

	This Curiosity Shop guy's takin' advantage of me...I just want my fair share...
— Sakon

Which is the name we had it at.

	Man from Curiosity Shop, buys and sells stolen goods. Open at night only.
— Bombers Notebook

Which is what we based this on. I don't like following this one because the notebook has horrible and clearly annotated grammar. The sentences aren't even complete.

	The man from the Curiosity Shop was added to your notebook!
— Text upon first talking to him while having the notebook.

These ones are usually full descriptions and have good grammar.

I'm not sure which one we'd go with, whichever one it is though I don't think it should be what it's at currently.User:Matt/sig 03:31, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I like the last one best. "This Curiosity Shop guy" doesn't sound very legit. And the Bomber's Notebook entry info is grammatically incomplete. "The Man from the Curiosity Shop" sounds most accurate, to me. And it's narration, so it's probably the most specific we're going to get. —Embyr 75  ^--Talk-- 00:16, 11 October 2010 (EDT)

Except, most of the time, we don't add "The" to article names, so it'd just be "Man from the Curiosity Shop." ;p Dany36 00:21, 11 October 2010 (EDT)

Designing Error

I really don't see why people consider him appearing in two places at once a designing error. The fact that he doesn't appear before six means he is not found there the whole time. If the designers were taking a short cut they would of just made it so the model is in the shop all the time or that he is never in the shop when viewed from the spy hole (since you never can look through it during the shop's opening hours). The fact that they actively programmed it so his model appears there seems like it was intentional to have them in two places at the same time to me anyway. Don Lark Kiin 09:44, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I talked to Trading Post manager with Stone Mask on...

...and he said something about thinking there was someone there. Then he says something like "Oh well... I've got to get ready for the night shift anyway". This implies that he is the same person as the Curiosity Shop guy. Avengah 05:43, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

Also, the third day you can found the part-timer at the trading post and in the field at the same time. Development errors can happen. SilverArcher 07:52, 2 August 2011 (EDT)