Talk:Sacred Realm/Archive 1
This is a sad, sad article. This is a very important thing in the The Legend of Zelda universe. We can do better than this. I'll make a few starting points. We'll go from there.User:Matt/sig 22:23, July 27, 2008 (UTC)
- I think this article is in a good enough condition now to merit the removal of the "In need of attention" marker on it. -- Xizor 21:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Fixed several errors in grammar, awkward syntax, and also confused references between the Temple of Time and the Temple of Light. Any other improvements that can be made are, of course, most welcome. -- Xizor 21:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Nearly a year later and it is finally starting to improve. It could use quite a bit more depth though. And expand on the fact that it is the Dark World. That is hardly a spoiler as it is clearly stated many times in the game usually before it is even called the Dark World. I would actually prefer that the two articles be merged as they are the same thing and it would not be a spoiler to merge.User:Matt/sig 22:04, June 8, 2009 (UTC)
- Oh wow, the length of this article is truly impressive. I'm gonna keep my eye on this one. It deserves it's featured nomination. I didn't get to read enough to vote on it yet, but I can see it happening. The most noticeable thing to address from what I've skimmed is the Citation Needed tags. As a preference, more than a policy, I like having theories all in one place at the bottom. If that can be managed without breaking the stream of information, it'd be a plus. Anyhow, Great job! User:Axiomist/sig 09:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well thank you very much, we all worked hard on it, those of us that were involved in rewriting it that is. Oh I skimmed back through to find the tags you were talking about and I only saw one. I put the quote necessary for it in, so there shouldn't be any more "Citation Needed" tags. If anyone finds one, let me or Dany know. Link87 13:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, that should only be the only citation needed tag for the whole article, 'cus I remember putting it in. Do you have the link where you got that quote from? It would be preferable to have it cited as a webpage instead of a quote. Thanks. :D Dany36 15:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I actually got the quote on here on the Ocarina of Time quotes page, but the link it gave is this one: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/interviews/kiootcomments.html Link87 03:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is the ALttP section just purely a summary of the plot? I mean, I know it has a lot to do with the Sacred Realm, but this following paragraph is merely just fluff. We don't need a summary of the game, we need only things that are related to the Sacred Realm, whether it's references, appearances, or whatever. The section might need some clean-up, but that's just me. Thoughts on this?
This is the paragraph I'm talking about:
Many centuries later, Ganon discovered a way to send part of his soul across the barrier between the two worlds to inhabit the body of a wizard named Agahnim, whom he then used to enact a scheme to break the seal of the Seven Sages. Under the guise of Agahnim, he came to Hyrule as though from nowhere and quelled many disasters that were besetting the kingdom using his magic. As a reward, Agahnim was allowed to take up residence in Hyrule Castle and became one of the King of Hyrule's closest advisers. Once his position was secure, Agahnim betrayed the King of Hyrule, spiriting him away and placing all of his soldiers under a magic spell that made them answerable only to him. He then ordered them to scour Hyrule for the descendants of the Seven Sages, the Seven Maidens, one of which was the King's daughter, Princess Zelda. Soon all of the girls were captured and Agahnim used his dark magic to send each of them across the barrier and into the Dark World, weakening the seal each time until only Princess Zelda remained. Although Zelda was able to escape with the help of a descendant of the Knights of Hyrule, Link, she was later recaptured by the castle soldiers and taken back to Hyrule Castle while Link was away seeking the Blade of Evil's Bane, the Master Sword. Link arrived only moments too late to stop Agahnim from sacrificing Zelda to the Dark World, and with this, the seal of the Seven Sages was at last broken, meaning it was only a matter of time before the gateway between the worlds opened completely and allowed Ganon to come forth once more at his full strength. Link did battle with Agahnim and upon defeating him was pulled into the Dark World himself along with Agahnim, who escaped to Ganon's stronghold, Ganon's Tower.
Dany36 20:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- You've hit the nail on the head here. I'll be honest, at first I only skim read these edits, because there's just far too much text on this page now. This section is now over 800 words, and most of it does equates to little more than a summary of the game's plot. One purpose of any encyclopedia is to break down broad groups of information into specific subjects and areas. The subject of this article is very narrow and clearly defined; the locale referred to as the Sacred Realm, and events and references relating to it. It seems that the article has now become somewhat rambling and essay-like. Simply making an article longer doesn't automatically improve its quality, unless the information added is directly relevant to the subject in question. One consequence is that other editors who want to improve the article are obliged to sift through this cruft, to attempt to pare the article back down to solely relevant content while maintaining the overall sense. The only other real option is to revert such edits entirely. User:Adam/sig 21:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, I've skimmed through the history of the page, and it seems we can rollback to this edit: link Link87 has been doing a pretty good job at fixing most of the page (I especially liked what he did with the intro paragraph of the article), but most of the stuff added afterwards is just a summary of the games' plot, mainly the ALttP and OoT section. The Twilight Princess section is perfectly fine, though, since it only talks about Lanayru's story of the Sacred Realm. We could add that afterwards. For now, I'll just add an improve tag at the top of the page until we can agree on something. Dany36 21:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've reverted back to that edit and locked the page for a day. Discussion and agreement on what positive changes should be made to the article needs to take place here. User:Adam/sig 12:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't exactly done paring down information for OOT or ALttP, I had to find a stopping point yesterday til I could return to work on it more. But I don't think reverting absolutely everything is necessary nor fair, given how much time it took to put some of that together. And a lock on the page is entirely unnecessary as well, nor do I see a purpose for it. Nobody was in an edit war over this, it was just rewriting the article to meet higher standards. I will agree some of the two sections in question could have been pared down, and I was going to, until Adam stepped in and removed everything for apparently no real reason. If you'd have given me the chance to do it, I wasn't entirely done with everything. If the page can be unlocked, we can continue work on it.
- What I was intending to do was to make smaller subsections for legends of the Sacred Realm spoken of in OOT and ALttP and to perhaps make one for the TP section as well and to weed out anything that did seem to be filler. But I was not given the opportunity to do so. If someone would kindly remove the lock on the page and let me return to what I was doing yesterday, I could complete work on it as I wanted to originally, I just needed more time to do it. I'm afraid there's been A LOT of overkill here on the part of Adam, as I myself am in agreement that we can pare things down and had fully intended to do so today when I got back to my computer and had more time to do so. It seems to me that Adam has overstepped his bounds here a bit I feel, b/c there is no disagreement here but rather consensus, as I have explained that the article was only in the process of being rewritten, not completely finished.
- Here's a summary of what I hoped/still hope to do:
- Rewrite the intro paragraph to be more descriptive and a nicer opening to generate more interest in reading further.
- Completely revamp the "Appearances" section with a small intro paragraph of its own, explaining which games the Sacred Realm has appeared in and give a brief introduction of the role it played in each.
- Write a section for each game it has appeared in to be more descriptive and detailed. First I planned to write down a summary of where it appeared in each game while brainstorming where it has appeared. Then once I'd done that, I intended to return to each and form smaller subsections about different legends of the Sacred Realm that were included in each game as well as a short paragraph or two explaining the realm's importance to the game, thereafter removing the summary since it is no longer needed to generate the realm's mention or references made to it in the games.
- And finally, I would like to import some new photographs into the article for each game appearance of the Sacred Realm, such as the scenes of it from OOT showing the creation of Hyrule, perhaps a picture of the Dark World from ALttP since both are the one and same, and a picture of it as it appeared in TP as well when Lanayru showed it in his story.
- Here's a summary of what I hoped/still hope to do:
- This is how I intend to help rewrite the article, and I hope that sounds good to you as well Dany. I agree with you about it being more specific, and I intended to do just that, I just didn't have a chance to respond to your messages last night b/c I was not at my computer and couldn't get back on until today. If Adam's lock can be removed though, we can continue the rewrite without any further interruptions. Link87 12:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- All the points saying where you wanted to go with this article sound perfectly reasonable; however, I think all of that stuff could have been done without necessarily writing down a summary of the plot into the article. I agree and think it's excellent that you're so well intent into writing a detailed description of where and how the Sacred Realm has been mentioned in the relevant games, but I still didn't see a reason for the summary. Like I said, the Twilight Princess section was more than acceptable because it dealt with Lanayru's story on the Sacred Realm, but the other two sections didn't convince me too well on how it went about barely talking about the subject at hand.
- I for one think that the article should be unlocked so that you can continue doing work over it (because you are doing a great job, minus the summaries). This page needs some serious work, and so far you've been one of the few ones to actually bother to fix it up and expand upon it. You seem to be very knowledgeable about this subject, and we need people like that to work on this article...just as long as they remember what subject this page is specifically talking about, and that people are careful into not putting fluff just for the sake of making the article long. I just hope that this little discussion hasn't worn out your enthusiasm to work on this page, and just remember that if there was stuff in your previous edits that you wanted to use, you could always click on this "history" tab and it will take you to all the revisions people have done.
- By the way, I think the intro paragraph is great, but if you still think that it needs improvement, then by all means, go for it! Dany36 15:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well thank you Dany, I appreciate it very much. I just saw the tag on the article and saw that it is a highly important topic that needed some help. As for the summaries, they were just to brainstorm the spots within the games where the realm is mentioned and in what capacity and to just generate ideas of where it came into those games as a whole. They weren't intended to remain there though, as you said I would like them to be specific and to have good sections on each legend or story that is told about it. And once again thank you for the kind comments about the intro paragraph, I think for the most part I finished it, but it was only the first step of those I stated above. I would appreciate your help and input on the rewrite of the article too if you get a chance. All help is greatly appreciated. One place in particular you could be of great help is the pictures: can you locate some additional pictures for the article? Link87 15:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, see, that's what I thought you were using the summaries for: to brainstorm and help you narrow things down, but I wasn't really sure where you were going with all of that, and it wasn't until now that you've explained your purposes. But it's all good! I think we've come to a nice agreement, and that's what matters. As for helping you with pictures, I would love to, but right now I'm working on the Snowhead article. However, as soon as I'm done with that, I'll look for pics and see what I can help on. ;) Dany36 16:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that precisely what I was doing, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer before, I just didn't have the time to do anything else beyond what I'd already done yesterday and had to find a suitable spot to stop at until today. But yes, that's fine, whenever you're done with Snowhead, you can pop back over and help me find some pictures and help me critique the final product for the Sacred Realm. It's such an important topic to the series, it deserves to have a good article to describe it, and we have so many great examples on here of what a good article should entail. I am always glad to have others' input on these things too. If you need help with Snowhead at all, just let me know too and I'll assist in any way I can. Oh and by the way, is there a list of articles that are in need of improvement someplace? I'd like to help improve them and get them up to speed too if such a list exists. Link87 16:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, yes, we do have a list of the articles that need improvement. It's right here. I think some of them have already been improved, but it's just that sometimes people forget to remove the improve tag. XD Alright, well, enough chit-chat. I better get started with the Snowhead article so that we can all work on our thing. Dany36 16:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks a bunch man, I appreciate it. I may work on Labrynna as soon as we're all done with the Sacred Realm. Give me some of your input on how it looks right now if you get a chance. I have to get off here for a bit and do some work, but I will try to be back on later to answer questions and discuss ideas for further improvement. I'd love to hear some suggestions as well as input on the present state of the article. Link87 18:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know about everyone else, but I am absolutely impressed with the quality that this article is now showing. No one had ever really bothered to do so much work with this page, and now thanks to you it's becoming an article that could be featured some time in the future. Most of the fluff is gone, and every single section deals with the appearances and mentions of the Sacred Realm. I don't know what else to say, except keep up the great work! I'm almost done with the Snowhead article (I'm slow :P), so I'll make sure to check out this article some time soon and start adding references. That way, it will look more professional and whatnot. I'll also try to look for more pictures, but I doubt I'll be able to help too much with the writing...you're already doing an awesome job with that yourself! I'm looking forward to more of your work. Dany36 18:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well thank you very much Dany, I appreciate the very kind compliments. I am very glad I can help out in shaping the wiki's articles to conform to a higher standard and to being of assistance to the administrators and other users in our efforts to make the wiki more informative and appealing to the eye. Once I am finished with the rewrite of the Sacred Realm, I think I'll turn my attention to Labrynna, as I think we can do a lot of great work for it. That being said, I have posted a tag above the article concerning the proposed merge with the Dark World article that was previously suggested by Matt I believe. I am in favor of it and have no objections as the two are said to be the one and same place. What are your feelings Dany? Or anyone else concerned for that matter? What say you to having the two merged into one, or would you rather they remain separate? Link87 19:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmmm...I'm not too sure that merging the Dark World into the Sacred Realm would be a good idea. I don't know how to quite explain myself, but the Dark World is the exact opposite of the Sacred Realm, and it should be treated as an identity different from the Sacred Realm. This page could link to the Dark Realm article but still talk about it in such manner (it already does in the Dark World). If we were to merge the two, then the Sacred Realm article would have to cover things such as the FSA level, and I just think that would be too relevant since this page IS talking about the Sacred Realm, and not about the Dark World. The Dark World has just become such a big topic that it deserves its own page (although the article itself is somewhat poorly written). Dany36 22:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I can see where you're coming from, especially since we have an entire level in FSA that is called the "Dark World" as well as the Dark World that the Links enter through the Moon Gates. The term "Dark World" has been broadened as the series has progressed, so I can see what you mean. As it stands now, I have included a section on where the Dark World pertains to the Sacred Realm and provided a link to the main page of the Dark World article. That page does need rewriting and can be dealt with in time, but that's how I currently have it on the page for the Sacred Realm. Any other thoughts about what Dany said or anything about the current status of the article? Ideas for improvement? Questions, comments, concerns? Link87 22:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have no complaints on the status of the article. :D All we need to do now is just add some nice images, add references, and this page will be good to go. I'll get started on those references right away... Dany36 22:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think merging with the Dark World is a good idea. Firstly it could act partly as a spoiler - like merging the Zelda and Sheik pages would, but in a more subtle way. Secondly, whilst the Dark World has been the Sacred Realm in some games, it comes down to personal opinions and theories as to whether it is in every game. So a no go for the merge. I've removed the template. That said, the Dark World article is needing attention.User:Melchizedek/sig 09:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- As I stated below, I feel the same way, especially after hearing what both you and Dany had to say on the subject. We have Level 5: The Dark World in FSA, plus we have the "Dark World" we are absorbed into through the Moon Gates in the same game. Then we have the Sacred Realm as the Dark World. It indeed could be confusing and as you said open to the viewer's interpretation of whether or not they are all the same. So I am of the same mind as both of you. However, as Melchizedek noted, the Dark World article does need some help. We can deal with that after this project is complete as well. Thanks to both of you for your input. Link87 12:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- No problem. I've removed the merge template from the two pages. You're doing a great job Link87! :) User:Melchizedek/sig 23:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Good stuff. User:Melchizedek/sig 00:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Dark World = Evil Realm?
I've noticed that, under the Appearances section for Ocarina of Time, it seems to reference the Evil Realm as the Dark World.
At the end of Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf is sealed within the corrupt Dark World.
I'm not sure using the term "Dark World" would be correct, especially considering that Rauru and Zelda don't call it that, but instead refer to it as the "Evil Realm":
- Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!! --Rauru
- Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! --Zelda
So perhaps it would be better to change all the instances of "Dark World" to "Evil Realm," at least when talking about the story of Ocarina of Time. I'm adding references right now, so if you guys don't mind, I'll do the change. Dany36 23:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have no objections to that, I just always assumed them to be the same thing generally since both are known to be the Sacred Realm. But I agree with you that when referencing a specific game, the best policy is to use the name that particular game uses. So thank you for noticing that. I will start looking for pictures too while you take care of the references. And thanks so much for the help too, it can be a lot of work for one person to do alone. Link87 23:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Be back in just a bit, gotta do a couple of things away from the computer. I'll finish up with the pics here in just a bit. Link87 00:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- No problem, for some reason, I enjoy adding references to articles. It's one the things that makes Zelda Wiki great. ;) Dany36 00:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Sacred Realm is not in TP
- Actually, it does appear, hence why the Golden Goddesses and the Triforce appeared, and Lanayru also spoke of the Sacred Realm when the Triforce appeared on screen, that's very difficult to dispute. It does make that brief appearance in Twilight Princess, in the story of the Dark Interlopers. Link87 21:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Maybe this is just me, but I feel all quotes used to make this article should be provided within the article at their respective spots. This may just be a overall issue I take with the wiki in general, as you are making extra work for the reader. Your talking about things like "GDT said that blah blah" - don't interpret what he said, quote me what he said. It would cut down a lot on some of the useless sentences and overall make the article more user friendly. To me, the references are where these quotes came from - the games themselves. Maybe that's just me, but as a reader I find it very annoying. Nathanial Rumphol-Janc 07:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That would become tedious and repetitive for times that it needs to be used more than once Nathan, we don't want to make a big mess of things. Interpreting the quote for you may be different than interpreting it for someone that doesn't have a clear idea what the quote actually means or has a limited knowledge of the series. This article, like all others, is tailored to those who don't have as big a knowledge of the series as others such as yourself or me or any of our other more experienced users. So I don't mean any disrespect at all, but there's not much of a clear way to do anything about what you've said that I can think of. You want the quotes in the text itself, but if we have to use it more than once throughout the article, it becomes repetitive and can be messy. You said you don't want any of the quotes interpreted since you have an idea of what they mean, but what happens for the person with a limited knowledge of the series that doesn't have a clue perhaps of what the GDT is referring to? And the quotes are a simple mouse-click away in the references section, hence why we put the link to each of them in the article. That's how it is for every article on the entire wiki. Link87 15:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I know that is how all the articles are done, and I disagree. First off, quotes don't need interpretation and explaining. They are self explaining to the reader. If GDT said something, he said something. It's not open for interpretation even for new folks. Even new fans can read a quote and take what they want from it. I have read through this article and find I disagree with many points in it based off the quotes, and that is partially because The Sacred Realm has always been one of those things left up to fan interpretation of a collection of quotes and a couple Cut Scenes.
- Secondly, since these articles are to inform the reader and provide them the facts of what is known about something, quotes shouldn't become overused. In this instance, the quotes would make the article smaller then it currently is, and they shouldn't be needed in more then one spot... really ever. If they are, the the article isn't written properly. Look at ZI's bomber stuff over the years. The reason it doesn't need to come up again later is because it had already came up, and for all intensive purposes anything that deals with that quote directly is pretty much there with the quote.
- As a reader, I should never have to steer away from what I am reading to figure out what your talking about. Why do I, as a reader, have to bounce to the bottom of the page, then bounce back up to continue reading? It breaks the flow of reading anything. I know this is how it's done all over the wiki with quotes... and frankly I hate it. You're doing nothing but offering the authors views of a quote, when another author may have a different take I do. I like 100% fact driven writing, and your making me do extra work to find the facts. To me, it's lame. I may have to bring this issue up as a general policy thing I dislike.
- To note, it's exactly the new people to the game I am worried about most. They may feel something the author said is 100% true when indeed, it may be just his take on a quote. As Zelda has always done, let the reader interpret for himself what it means. This flow breaking is gay. Also, keep in my mind that this is a personal preference, not like... necessarily a real issue with the article. I just found forcing myself to read through it being a chore since I had to constantly break the flow. Nathanial Rumphol-Janc 16:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
There is no point of view expressed here but the facts, and that's the way it was intended to be written. Any comments of that nature are pure opinion. You're still not offering anything uniquely wrong with the article that is addressable though. Your opinions about article composition are general and could apply to every article on here, not simply this alone. You're criticizing a precedent that's been set in regard to references it seems, but that has nothing to do with the article's merit. Others have said they found it to be an enjoyable read, I myself don't see why it wouldn't be. Link87 17:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's not entirely true. The Twilight Princess parts that mention the sacred realm, plus the cutscene, are very open to interpretation. Anyways, I digress, it is a more general issue I take. For some reason or another this article just bothered me. I kept jumping up and down the page the whole time making it very hard to get through. Like I said, it's personal preference. Never meant to say anything was wrong I guess. Nathanial Rumphol-Janc 18:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- The Twilight Princess part simply tells what the Sacred Realm had to do with the actions of the Dark Interlopers, nothing more. It was the thing that drove them and compelled their actions, so that's all that was said. I understand your frustration of going from the text to the bottom where the references are, but that's something that there's not a whole lot that can be done about given that it's the going precedent for the entire wiki. Perhaps if the staff comes up with an idea that differs to solve that issue you have, we could implement a new way to input the references and quotations. One idea I had was to put the "Show" technology to use here and have each of those little numbers, instead of going to the bottom of the page, have a bubble pop up that gives the quote right there, kind of a compromise between the two, you know? But I don't know if any such feature exists. Link87 19:20, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I can remember a different quote being at the peak of this, but I can't find the right history version. Something about a sky that's gold, not blue...? If anyone knows that quote, could they give it to me (or at least a link to the dated version) and explain why the quote was changed? Lord of the Stalfos Creatures - Stalfos Meeting Chamber 03:14, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
"In a realm beyond sight, the sky shines gold, not blue. There the Triforce's might makes mortal dreams come true." Book of Mudora, A Link to the Past. Link87 05:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- Not only is the new quote more definitive and representative of the Sacred Realm, it is a much more revealing, descriptive one. While the previous quote did have poetic merit, the current one best correlates and focuses the content of the article as well right from the beginning. User:Cipriano 119/sig 05:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)