July 25, 2020

👭 Knight Challenge #11 👬

Want to try your hand at these challenges? There's a couple of things you can do!
From writing, to research, to images, find your preferred way to contribute with our eleventh theme: Couples!

Latest Announcements

As part of the Unified Community Platform project, this wiki and 38 others will be migrated to the new platform, with migrations beginning September 23rd at 7am CDT. Minimal changes are expected as part of this migration. Read more here.

Talk:Sacred Realm

From Zelda Wiki, the Zelda encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Theory regarding Hyrule/Sacred Realm juxtaposition in LoZ/AoL.

Being new to the site, I haven't had the leisure of see all past theories and discussions.

However, I would like to field a hypothesis regarding the possible chronology placing LoZ and AoL after ALttP. This seems somewhat likely to me, as LoZ references Ganon invading Hyrule to gain the Triforce, NOT invading the Sacred Realm. In theory, does it not seem plausible that when Link defeated Ganondorf in ALttP and repaired the Sacred Realm, the peace and prosperity that followed for Hyrule were because Link merged or exchanged the two realms? This would then place LoZ in context to have the resting place of the Triforce in Hyrule, as well as falling in line with the interview placing ALttP as a prequel.

This would also open the possibility that Ganon was NOT the same villain as Ganondorf, but a follow thereof. This would also fall in with the statement at the end of ALttP that Ganondorf had been destroyed utterly.

I'm placing this under the Sacred Realm discussion since it seems that the chronology could place the first two games as being a conflict centered on, and happening in, a Hyrulian Sacred Realm. Feel free to pick this apart, but be gentle. It's my first time here.

Ithrion the Grey 19:38, 4 October 2011 (EDT)Ithrion the Grey

If you look at the timeline page, you can see that that possibility is already there. LoZ and AoL are in () and are placed before and after ALttP, showing that it is possible for them to exist in both. Vyselink 22:03, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

The Sacred Realm prior to Ocarina of Time

While Hyrule Historia does not mention the Sacred Realm when covering the events prior to Ocarina of Time, the section covering the creation of the Temple of Time does not act as if the Sacred Realm was created then. So we can't assume that anything about it being the Triforce's resting place has been retconned. We do not know where the Triforce was kept at any event prior to the backstory of Skyward Sword, but we can assume it was the Sacred Realm. I can only assume the reason it was not still there is because it was in Hylia's care. Why it was not returned there and instead sent to the sky is unknown, but presumably Demise could potentially access the Sacred Realm during this time, and Hylia did not want this. The Sacred Realm was not cut off from Hyrule until later. ※Fizzle (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying though that it is definitely a retcon. What I'm suggesting is that we take it as ambiguously canon. The fact that Hyrule Historia doesn't mention the Sacred Realm on page 70, isn't a good reason? The Triforce could have been placed in the Sacred Realm, or simply given to Hylia and so it could be in Hylia's Temple for example. The fact that there is the Triforce's symbol there makes it possible. Basically, the main point of the edit was to make the article more neutral. Zeldafan1982 01:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
While Hyrule Historia is an important source, we don't want to negate the evidence directly presented to us in the games. It's not our job to rewrite what the games say to suit Hyrule Historia's presentation, especially when what they say is fairly ambiguous in the first place. Is there anything in that opening paragraph that actively contradicts what Hyrule Historia says? HH doesn't cover everything in detail, most things are mentioned in passing. Further detail is what this wiki is for, yes?
Basically, while HH is largely canon, it's not infallible, they even outright say so in the book. There are going to be some contradictions here and there. As things go, this is a fairly minor one. Unless you think I am missing something in particular? ※Fizzle (talk) 02:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
The thing is that the last game mentioning that the Triforce was placed in the Sacred Realm after the creation is OoT. If it was a very recent official source that said that then I wouldn't be arguing. Skyward Sword as I said also doesn't mention the Sacred Realm. So, I don't see why the possibility of a retcon would be unreasonable here (it wouldn't be the first time in the series). Anyway, my opinion is that at this point we can't be certain about the Triforce's location after its creation. Others can leave their opinion too. Zeldafan1982 04:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I need to delve into the quotes a bit deeper but it's POSSIBLY true that perhaps the Triforce was not originally placed there and was given to Hylia immediately. At the same time, I very much doubt that the Sacred Realm is anything other than the intended resting place of the Triforce. I don't see either possibility as being mutually exclusive, however. Both things can occur quite happily, I'm sure. ※Fizzle (talk) 02:42, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Even if the Triforce was not placed there after its creation, the Sacred Realm is still a resting place, albeit later. One possibility is that the Goddesses created many realms and after SS the Triforce was moved there to be more safe. Then when the war ensued Rauru took more drastic measures and isolated it. Maybe the realm was only named like that after the Triforce was placed there (since it housed a sacred power) or taking into account Lanayru's quote (the Japanese version) every realm created by the gods is a holy land so the name doesn't really matter.
P.S. Do you mean that Hylia took it initially and put in the Sacred Realm? It's possible, but the Triforce could have been placed there after SS.
P.S 2 I will probably not have enough time to edit on the next few days so I'll reply later. Zeldafan1982 04:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I was actually suggesting that Hylia also originally resided in the Sacred Realm. Indeed, the Hylian people may of also originated from the Sacred Realm. Of course, this is all speculation, we can only go on what the games say. I checked some quotes and it does seem like the Sacred Realm was not necessarily where the Triforce was placed by the Gods, the NoA manual states this but the Japanese manual just says that is where it was hidden, leaving some ambiguity. Obviously it's hinted at that's where the Gods put it, but it's not clear. ※Fizzle (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
It says at some point that "It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared." and this is supposedly from a section of a script (it says that "This documentation was written by the race of Hylia"). Zeldafan1982 18:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the Triforce resting in the Sacred Realm ever since its creation and it being given to Hylia to guard it don't have to be mutually exclusive. First, as many have said before me, it could be that before Demise's first attempt to invade the world, Hylia resided in the Sacred Realm, guarding the Triforce, but my main point is the following: the Sacred Realm is the Silent Realm. In Skyward Sword, the Triforce rests within the Sky Keep, which is part of Hylia's Temple. However, the sacred triangles aren't located actually within the temple itself, but rather in a different place that is accesed from the temple. If you pay close attention, to get the Triforce in that game, you have to thrust the Master Sword into the ground to open a portal to a mirror version of the dungeon, which has the same hue and musical theme as the silent realms encountered previously (which also are accessed by thrusting the sword into the ground), which in turn strongly implies that in this game the Triforce lies within the Silent Realm. Now, let's put the pieces together and assemble the puzzle: not only the Silent Realm houses the Triforce (which, prior to SS, was always consistently said to be in the Sacred Realm upon its very creation) but also the Silent Realm is a parallel version of the normal world, just like the Sacred Realm is; moreover, the Silent Realm has a feeling of twilight just like some descriptions of the Sacred Realm say, and finally, the only way known to mortals to access the Silent Realm involves the Goddess/Master Sword as the fundamental key to open the portal, just like in OoT for a mortal to enter the Sacred Realm, it involves the Master Sword. See? It's practically pretty obvious that Skyward Sword's Silent Realm is the Sacred Realm just by another name, not unlike how it was called "Golden Land /Dark World" in ALttP. This way, Skyward Sword's treatment of the Triforce (being guarded by Hylia and resting in the Silent Realm) doesn't contradict previous tellings of the Sacred Realm, just expands upon them. So, to put it shortly, the Sacred Realm before OoT is what in SS we call the Silent realm. For a more detailed chronology, these would be the flow of events in the Sacred Realm's history prior to OoT, according to my theory:

- Din, Nayru and Farore create the world and a mirror world to it, the latter containing their Sacred essence in the form of the Triforce, which is deposited there at the very moment they depart back to the heavens. This mirror world is called the Sacred Realm since it contains nothing but the Sacred essence of the Goddesses.

- The three Golden Godesses put Hylia in charge of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce.

- The mortals of the world erect a temple to the Goddess Hylia; she uses this temple as her personal sanctuary and thus deposits the Triforce in the Sacred Realm version of her Temple.

- Demise invades the world; Hylia defeats him and seals him underneath her temple. Part of the land, including Hylia's Temple, is raised above the clouds to protect both the survivors to the invasion and the Triforce within her Temple. The ruins left of Hylia's Temple in the surface become known as the Sealed Grounds (after Demise's sealing place), while the raised portion becomes the Sky Keep.

- Hylia renounces to her inmortality, leaving an empty Sacred Realm, but leaves the place prepared for when someone worthy (Her Chosen Hero) needs to reach the Triforce; she turns the Goddess Sword into the key between the two worlds and places it at the entrance to her temple. Because of nobody inhabiting it, the Sacred Realm is now know as the Silent Realm.

- Skyward Sword happens, Link enters the Sky Keep and, with the help of the Master Sword, enters the Silent Realm from within the Sky Keep, gets the Triforce and wishes for Demise's destruction, which the Triforce concedes. The Sky Keep falls back to the surface, reverting to its original location (squashing and killing Demise in the process), restoring the original Hylia's Temple.

- Link guards Hylia's Temple, Zelda guards the Triforce, once again deposited in the Silent/Sacred Realm. The Silent Realm becomes the Sacred Realm once again.

- Centuries later, once the kingdom of Hyrule is properly founded, the sage Rauru builds the Temple of Time where Hylia's Temple once stood; the new temple serves the same purpose as the old one: to house the Master Sword, the only key to the Sacred Realm where the Triforce rests; the Sacred Realm version of the Temple of Time is known as the Temple of Light and it contains both the Triforce and the Camber of Sages. In the mortal world, the chamber with the Master Sword is sealed behind the Door of Time, thus effectively sealing the Sacred Realm.

- Ocarina of Time Happens: Rauru's seal over the Sacred Realm is opened for the first time. VeggiePopper 23:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Although there are significant similarities between the two realms, it is important that you cannot enter the Silent Realm physically, but spiritually; it's more like a virtual world, comparable to the matrix.
Generally, when making comparisons, any differences should be considered otherwise we would end up equating zebras with horses, chickens with turkeys and so on. Anyway, my point is that the differences are no less important than the similarities, so they shouldn't be ignored. Zeldafan1982 21:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
That actually adds up to the similarities and expands upon my theory: the Silent Realm is only accessed spiritually in that game, but we don't know how it would/might accesed in further games. The fact that it is accessed spiritually rather than physically doesn't have to be exlusive against what we see of the Sacred Realm in other games:
- First off, in Skyward Sword while only accessed spiritually, what Links achieves there has impact on the material world, as completing the Godesses trials grants him items he can use in the material world (thus, those 'spiritual objects', if you will, can materialize), meaning there is a last one kind of physical/material interaction between the Silent Realm and the common world (future Hyrule), just like the one there is between the Sacred Realm and Hyrule.
- In Ocarina of Time, once Link pulls the Master Sword, it is explicitly said that it was his spirit (not his body) which was dormant for seven years, implying that in this game the way access the Sacred Realm is also achieved (if not completely, at least partially) spiritually not unlike the Silent Realm of SS.
- In A Link to the Past, it is said that it was Ganon's malevolent heart and spirit (not him possessing the Triforce nor his sheer actions) what corrupted the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, again indicating that the connection between both Realms is one of a spiritual nature but with physical consecuences (just like in SS the connection is spiritual [i.e. how it is accessed] with a material consequence [Link's new items]). Also in that game, Link turns into a bunny as a reflection of his heart and nature, both circumstances implying that the Sacred Realm's connection with Hyrule is more of a spiritual one rather tha physical one (although physical interactions can be achieved as a consequence), just like it Skyward Sword.
- I admit this one to be taken with a grain of salt because of the multiple options, but the fact that Ganon doesn't die of old age while imprisoned in the Sacred Realm/Dark World could be interpreted as time not flowing within there, or flowing under different rules than in the normal world, which can be attributed to it being a spiritual rather than a physical place. Alternatively, this may be because Ganondorf wasn't physically sealed within the Sacred Realm, only his spirit was sealed there while his body remained in Hyrile (which would answer why Ganon has a physical body [Agahnim] within Hyrule in A Link to the Past and why he could break out of his seal in The Wind Waker's backstory). Whereas the first scenario has the flaw that Ganon also don't die while in the Twilight Realm (although that might be because of the theory that the Twilight Realm is what became of the Sacred Realm of that timeline, but that's a whole different topic), the second one stands true as of now.
I know it can't be taken for granted as Hyrule Hystoria doesn't confirm it, but that explains the inconsistencies between SS and the rest of the games; I've seen more farfetched theories or with even less elements to back them up being put in the main article, so why this one doesn't deserve to at least be featured in the theories section of the article? VeggiePopper 14:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's not only the way the Silent Realm is accessed, but also the nature of the realm (a physical versus a spiritual realm, which is not what the Sacred Realm is according to OoT and ALttP).
- About OoT, Link's body was present in the Sacred Realm during his sleep. Time passes normally there, that's why Link is older seven years when he awakes, while seven years passed in Hyrule.
- Agahnim could be a manifestation of Ganon's spirit. Basically, Ganon managed to pass only part of his spirit through the seal and Agahnim has to do his stuff in order for Ganon to be completely free. It's similar to the Ocean King and his "avatar", Oshus. Also, there is no indication that Ganon was not physically sealed by the OoT sages.
- The Silent Realm page mentions the possibility that the realms could be the same, so I don't think it is necessary to be added here, although I wouldn't personally mind. Zeldafan1982 21:54, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Lanayru's quote and other stuff

Lanayru's quote was referring to Hyrule, that's why I had removed it (Link). The respective section on page 113 from HH says the same thing so the re-translation has to be correct.

Jumbie: The place where the goddesses first landed is called the holy land.
NOA: The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm.

Jumbie: For a long time, the world was at peace, with people's hearts being deeply faithful…
NOA: For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...

Jumbie: But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.
NOA: But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued...

Deku Tree: (Link)
混沌の地 ハイラルに 黄金の三大神、降臨す。
jacensolo06: Three great golden goddesses descended to the land of chaos that was Hyrule.
NOA: Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule...

神々の 去りし地に、黄金の聖三角 残し置く。
jacensolo06: Golden sacred triangles were left behind in the land from which the gods left.
NOA: And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world.

So, in OoT and ALttP the Sacred Realm is the parallel dimension we know, whereas in TP for some reason Hyrule itself is called the Sacred Realm. Also, according to both OoT and TP the goddesses descended to Hyrule, not the Sacred Realm.

Since the ALttP quote about the Sacred Realm having golden skies is a NOA invention isn't better if we remove it from the intro? I have added a trivia. Zeldafan1982 23:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, the golden skies are not an NoA invention, as the Japanese text mentions twilight gold skies in a different part of the story I believe, just not in the poem (I find the bigger change is the poem coming from the Book of Mudora, which was totally made up). Secondly, the quote in Twilight Princess, to me, looks ambiguous. The term "Holy Land" is very vague. Hyrule can be a holy land but not THE Holy Land. It looks like Hyrule Historia agrees, as it just refers to the sacred realm of Hyrule in lowercase. But I'm not sure what the "rules" are, since we go by what NoA says, still. ※Fizzle (talk) 02:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
You are right about the "golden skies" thing. I just looked at the manual again and there is this quote (Zethar): "The Triforce was there, casting a golden light in the midst of twilight."
Regarding the canon the wiki acknowledges (in the bottom section of the respective page) that the Japanese text is of higher canonical value and says that important differences should be mentioned in the trivia and not the main body. Then the question I guess is whether we should include the quote from NOA in the main body AND the trivia or only the trivia (which also mentions the NOA quote). I think the latter makes more sense.. Seeing that OoT (both NOA and the fan-translations) says that the goddesses descended in Hyrule and not the Sacred Realm is one reason more to ignore NOA's translation for Lanayru. Zeldafan1982 04:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Edit: Basically now that I look it again, the whole article is supposed to be written per NOA and the differences should only be mentioned in the trivia. Still, this rule has been "violated" even by Dany in the Oocca page, and I think she did right since the Oocca creating the Hylians was a mistranslation. Also, as I said we still have a NOA quote from OoT saying that the goddesses descended in Hyrule. Zeldafan1982 14:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it depends how major the discrepancy is between the two versions. For example, Ganondorf's second name, Dragmire, is mentioned as an NoA invention on his page too. I think there's room for explaining how the Twilight Princess references are probably not referring to the Sacred Realm directly, yes. For now, I'll remove the quote from the top of the page. ※Fizzle (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Oh, you did it already. You and your consecutive edits. ※Fizzle (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Theories section

I'm a bit confused about what the Theories section is trying to say. It seems to be suggesting that the Sacred Realm was affected along with the Triforce when the timeline split occured, but it doesn't say how or why, and just lists some facts about what happened to the Triforces of Courage and Power after the split. I'm thinking these should be removed. Does anyone else agree?

And on a related note, might the "Silent Realm = Sacred Realm" theory be worth mentioning in the section? Setras 23:24, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Basically the idea is that since there are two instances of each Triforce piece, the Triforce was duplicated, and that the same thing happened with the Sacred Realm.
Regarding the latter, I think it can be mentioned, it's just that I didn't personally see it as top priority since the theory is already on the Silent Realm page. Zeldafan1982 00:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)