- They could have said "inside a whale?" Also, the fact that it lives in an underground cave, and never leaves it, puts strong doubt as to it being anything air-breathing.
- Oshus does not live in the temple. It was built to worship him, not for him to live in. The spirits also do not live in the three temples. Phantom Hourglass - presumably, because Oshus took the pieces back to turn into a whale. You don't see the sword after Oshus takes the sand.
- Sorry, I got the z's confused on wizzrobe. That still does not mean it is an innacuracy - they used a valid name from a valid game. The stuff about "properly updated" also doesn't make sense - I can understand Laruto and Fado possibly being left out for spoiler reasons, but why would Shiro appearing be bad?
- The ten minutes? Ciela is the spirit of time. Quite simple. Tetra (or one of the pirate's, I think) said, near the beginning, "these are the waters protected by the Great Spirit, the Ocean King". Think about the Minish example you raised earlier - the human world is not "their world", but it is a world they protect. Ezlo goes back to the Minish World at the end, but that doesn't mean that TMC's Hyrule wasn't "real". "Our world" - Tetra clearly knew of these oceans. Especially if the Ghost Ship is the door - they are inside the Ghost Ship.
- "Hey, Tetra! They say these seas are protected, yeah? Something about a spirit called the Ocean King. Wouldn't a spirit like that protect the ships? Unless there really is an evil Ghost Ship..."
- Idea! Oshus says that every creature "in this world" possesses life force - yet Bellum is a life force leech - perhaps they are in Bellum's world? Would make a whole mess more sense, and get rid of the giant inconsistency. Possibly even the Sacred Realm, as that seems to be the natural home of divine creatures like fairies and spirits.
- Linebeck is primarily a treasure-hunter, not a pirate and hardly a sailor. He would be the most likely person to know where he is at all times. And why would Oshus lie about Link and Linebeck being stuck? He never mentions any of this "our world" nonsense until they are on the Ghost Ship. Also - if Linebeck has grown acquainted with Oshus's world, if he doesn't want to return to his world....why make him go back? There was no impetus to return home, unlike in LA or even MM.
- Finally, if the Ship is the door - why is the door only open when the ship has been pretty much erased from existence? About Joanne - I meant she knew of him. Sorry for being unclear.
- But she certainly does say "100 years", and I can't find an idiom in the japanese that would account for that. I may need to keep looking, but this is pretty much the only indication we've got to lifespan of Hylians anyway, so why would it "certainly not be 100 years?"
- The Hourglass is now not needed - it was created to defeat Bellum. The pure metals belong to the tribes. If Oshus didn't absorb them along with the sand, its reasonable that he returned them, and let Link keep the Hourglass to prove that it was real.
- Simon's Simulations - well, dreams are based on reality. The owner could have given it to him. Or the fact that they are magical, and become part of yourself, apparently, instead of being held, physical items...it really seems to be more of a material spell than an actual item.
- None of the spirits actually live in their temples - they are imprisoned in them. Oshus can't even get to the Ocean Temple without turning into a person, and for the upgrade island - it is said that they travelled to there - if they can leave their world to protect the Great Sea, they can easily leave it to become stronger.
- Floods screw up everything, even the water - for example, you could imagine that the water would be much more filthy, which would explain Ganon's whole "there are no fish in this sea" line.
- Except that Fado was in the temple until recently, when Ganon stole his soul. Makar has been alive for quite a while. I would expect that if Makar is the reincarnation of Fado, that they should not have been alive at the same time. I know Fado appears over him, and Makar shortly disappears, but the best explanation I can come up with is that it just looks like Fado, and for whatever reason, Makar is looking like Koroks used to. Or he turned invisible. Koroks are forest spirits, after all, while Medli is flesh and blood. Also important - Laruto is never actually seen at the awakening outside of Medli's dream - she could have overshadowed Medli like Fado did Makar, or not appeared at all. Whatever - if you want to add more substance, go ahead, if you want to remove the theory completely, go ahead. But I don't see how it's possible for Fado to actually be Makar - he could have been an ancestor, but he seems to have still been alive until recently.KrytenKoro 15:54, 22 December 2007 (EST)
Is there anything in this discussion left about the Zora-Rito theory? ;D Given your final sentence, I assume it's okay for me to make some adjustments to the text. If you don't agree with the result, feel free to edit it again. It's just that we have sorta come to an agreement on some points, and the text can be adjusted to that.
- I'm only going to reply on some general points. I'd love to continue the discussion(s) (please say so if you want that as well), but since this page is currently 55kb and mostly off-topic, I suggest we continue on more appropriate talk pages (TLOZ:PH, Kokiki or Korok, Jabu-Jabu etc.), where the discussion can be used to improve the articles. I'll see if I can move, copy and paste the discussion parts to more appropriate places.
- Not mentioning something that is not relevant (at that time) is not the same as lying.
- My point regarding the Zelda.com encyclopedia was this. Up until MM, pretty much every character, even those who are pretty much nobodies, has a mentioning in the encyclopedia. But important characters (other than the main) from later games do not have a mentioning. The younger the game, the less items from such game gets an own mentioning. To me, this indicates a fading interest in the encyclopedia and keeping it up-to-date. As for the Wizzrobe/Wizrobe issue: it's part of a bigger picture. What's written there never gets changed, even if it's wrong or outdated. I have no reason to give that encyclopedia any credit.
- I fail to understand what you mean with this question: "if the Ship is the door - why is the door only open when the ship has been pretty much erased from existence?". The door has always been open, until the very last moment in which Link, Tetra and Linebeck were brought back. Just when would it have been closed?
- We don't know when Ganon killed Fado and Laruto. I always thought he killed them before the flood.
- Downright saying inside a whale would've made the next objective too clear. Like I said, sometimes text is vague on purpose. Also, Jabu-Jabu does not spend all of his time inside a cave, as shown in OOT. Otherwise, I'm also not assuming that every single being in the Zelda series truly is at only one place during the time Link's quests take, even though they are always there when you visit. Same might be for Jabu-Jabu.
- Did anyone ask Link if he wanted to return to his childhood? IfIHaveTo 17:50, 23 December 2007 (EST)
- On the earlier note about Hylia becoming the Human race through intermingling: "But the blood of the Hylia has grown thin over time.", from ALttP
- He says that the Ghost Ship was made to drain the Life Force from "this sea", and that the Ghost Ship hunted down Tetra.
- In fact, he always says the the Ghost Ship roams "these seas" - the japanese version is even clearer about this.
- "I have no reason to give that encyclopedia any credit." - the reason it's been updated less is because new game's now have their own sites with much of the same info that would be in the encyclopedia - for example, the TP site. It would still be reliable on the games before that push.
- "The door to your world is about to open." NOT "Is about to close".
- After relooking at the text, it does say that Ganondorf attacked the sages when he first came back, with the flood. Sorry.
- "Inside a whale" ... how? You hadn't met any fish yet, and Jabu-Jabu is the only one you meet in the game, since Zora are merely piscine. And he stays underwater the whole time. The japanese know what the difference between a fish and a whale are - unlike us, as an island culture that has strong ties to fishing (and whaling, one of the last countries to be so), they aren't as confused as American schoolchildren. And he is inside a cave/trench in OoA. Also, he has gills. They're shown, and King Zora specifically mentions them.
- In most of the games, people walk around. They don't leave town, but there's good reason for that - it's not safe. Granted, in OoA, time is halting, but that just adds to the fire.
- Anyway, your edits are overall fine. I made some changes to correct them, and added some references.KrytenKoro 20:05, 25 December 2007 (EST)
I assume you don't want to carry on the discussions then. Fine then. I think your edits to my edit are okay, but I would like to ask two questions about them, if you don't mind.
- Why change "shown" into "seemed" when talking about the Sea Zoras ability to live in salt water. Both OOA and MM showed that they were fine with such an environment, didn't they?
- What exactly is your problem with the argument that a Sea Zora's stuff could find their way into Rito possession if the former decided to live among Rito?
- You've got some good arguments for PH's setting being the TWW world. Unfortunately, I don't know what to think of it anymore. Ciela being the Spirit of Time just doesn't explain things IMO, as such titles rarely have shown much significance. True, she could (barely) freeze time, but that is nothing compared to what she should have done to explain the ending.
- What I meant was, they don't leave town, they don't even leave their chairs, position, activity etc. That's just the way they are displayed and should not be taken too seriously. Found the quote you are refering to, and that is a pretty strong argument he is a fish. But just why then does he have a nose?
- "the reason it's been updated less is because new game's now have their own sites with much of the same info that would be in the encyclopedia - for example, the TP site. It would still be reliable on the games before that push." - And thus agreeing with my point that the encyclopedia is no longer updated and that any wrong or outdated info there (likely) does not get fixed. I never said I do not trust the games' microsites. I have barely no reason to not believe those sites, because there exist japanese equilavents of those (on which the english ones are based). Even though the Japanese microsites may be made by people just as unrelated to the creators of the games as the people making the encyclopedia, at least there are a lot of mistakes that the japanese do not suffer from (like Zola-Zora). The encyclopedia is random info smashed together by NoA(?) with no consistency whatsoever.IfIHaveTo 06:17, 29 December 2007 (EST)
- Because we do not know that they lived in salt water. Right at the river delta, it is often still fresh water - for example, it is fresh water for miles into the ocean right out of the Amazon.
- Because it's an unneeded addendum to "The Zora may have been only Medli/Komali's ancestor". The first is enough - the "item" bit is an unnecessary and somewhat confusing addition.
- That Ciela could freeze time, while captured, against the being that held most of the power of her lord (who at the time was mostly powerless), and that the immense amount of Force, about to be returned to Oshus, is often said in the game to be "the source of all magic", is quite impressive. It's no stretch to say she could even more once Bellum was not only dead but Oshus was back in his full power.
- "Don't leave chairs"...what? In most games, while they may stay on the same screen, they do still move around. MM wasn't the exception, it was just the pinnacle. Beside, its a mostly irrelevant argument - even if they do stay still, they don't need to move half a mile up to breathe.
- ...Fish have noses. How do you think sharks smell blood? They just don't use them to breathe air.
- The encyclopedia has plenty of consistency - even Britannica makes mistakes sometimes. What I was trying to say is that the encyclopedia is meant to be taken with the microsites' pedias. And your argument seems to be "even though I have no proof that the Japanese sites were actually made by the "official Zelda producers" any more than the English ones were, at least they aren't made by those stupid Americans". Again, have we had anything from either Nintendo saying "Zola was a mistake"? For all we know, Zola is still valid - after all, they've at the same time switched over from "races and deities" to "tribes and spirits" - that doesn't mean that previous terms were fallacious.KrytenKoro 16:02, 29 January 2008 (EST)
Should this be mentioned?
Well I noticed something. Um the Ritos need a scale to gain wings and fly and well the Zoras have a scale to dive deeper, but I'm not sure if it should be mentioned because I don't remember seeing anywhere in OoT where it mentions the Zoras using it to dive deeper.--Green
Oh yeah I bet this has been mentioned before but the wings on the Ritos look very similar to the fins on the Zoras. Maybe they don't look exactly the same but it's a little strange that the wings of a Rito are located at the same place where the fins of a Zora's are located at.--Green 03:09, 25 November 2007 (EST)
- How is that awkward? Doesn't every living thing with the main body-head-legs/tail-arms/wings the same setup? Call me ONE bird who has its wings on its head, or one fish who doesn't have fins where non-fish have their arms/legs/wings. Even more so, these two creatures are human-based qua design, so they have those bodyparts where human anatomy would expect them to be. It's not awkward at all.IfIHaveTo 14:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)
- ...except that you would expect the Rito to have wings like a bat, not like this. I'll show you one bird that has its wings on its elbows, and this is apparently it. And if compared to Zora Link, it is much more striking.KrytenKoro 11:41, 3 December 2007 (EST)
- Why would it have batlike wings? It's a bird. Really, it's nothing of importance. Most Zora have (or had?) their fins on the lower part of their arms, not on the higher part. And this includes Zora Link.IfIHaveTo 13:24, 5 December 2007 (EST)
- Well if you look at birds their wings are actually their arms much like a bat's wings are actually its arms. There isn't any known bird on earth that has wings growing out of its arms. If Nintendo wanted to depict the Rito to be more bird-like their wings should probably more like the Watarara. It looks as if the Nintendo purposely design the wings that way and that the resemblance wasn't on accident.--Green 22:14, 8 December 2007 (EST)
- No offence but that i know of the Ritos are actually in one of the Spyro games just like Year of the dragon, enter the dragonfly and other series including Ripto's rage exept for Zora. I easilly noticed why those ritos are in spyro games in the first place.--Brandondorf9999 01:48, 13 July 2011 (EDT)