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Uhuh, if I were leader of a certain group of people, my first responsibility also would be to make sure they live to see another day. That's the first priority of a leader and has nothing to do with Valoo, or rather, the fact it in this case has is not relevant for the meaning of that quote. And, duh, attendants of gods/spirits ALWAYS are high up in the hierarchy. During the middle ages, the only way for the lower class to make a career was to become a nun/monk. High position comes with the job. Medli most likely only is high in hierarchy because of her being Valoo's attendant. Ruto was high in position due to being a princess, and sidestep because of being the whale's feeder. Medli most likely did not know Komali's Grandmother (on a personal level) until she was chosen as the next attendant. First off, otherwise she would not speak about her as Komali's Grandmother and secondly, she said something of that nature when playing the harp. I'll look up the exact quote later, if you don't mind. Also, didn't the Rito used to worship two more gods? Weren't Zephos and Cyclos their gods as well?
P.S. I don't think it matters for this discussion what Jabu-Jabu is. Whale, fish, or a horse without legs, it's not relevant. Otherwise: "He is a giant fish (or, more likely, a whale, as he has no dorsal fins and a horizontal fluke rather than a vertical tail-fin)" - picked up from somewhere.
Again, who cares? I know zip about South American cultures. I can recognize them as SA, and that's it. And how is Fairytale-mermaid not a culture type? You know what cultural atmosphere I'm trying to describe. It's far apart from the Rito culture. Look, I understand all your arguments, but seriously, most of them are either farfetched or arguably only of recent date (for instance Jabun holding the pearl, which could very easily be the result of Ganon killing the other (potential) holders of that one island.) Like, I really can't remember the Zora being so concerned about the rivers' and lake's water. I already gave my thoughts on the noble-issue. Medli is not of noble (Rito) blood.
The MM and OOA Sea Zoras are not of concern in this issue. The area in which TWW takes place is Hyrule, not Termina, not Labrynna. It is never said that the Zora worship at the temple, not in TP, not in OOT (or maybe I didn't find the quotes you are refering to?). Yes, Jabu-Jabu COULD still be with the Zoras, but "could" and "if" are not arguments (I already said I wanted to avoid those as much as possible). And if he's not there, that breaks the connection of Zora-JabuJabu-Rito-Valoo.
I do not want to see "if"'s and the likes, and that includes timelines.
A bit? Seriously, that emblem is nothing like the Zora emblem. That's like comparing a comb and a fork.
Look, I am not angry about you changing the grammar (thumbs up for trying to improve an article), or considering mine bad. What does trouble me is that you out loud said it and used the word "appalling". Euphemisms were invented for situations like these, so next time, please find a less offensive description like: "The grammar could use some improvement".
No, it isn't. The wording was decribing shapeshifting, or the choosing of a body by creatures without one. Evolution in both the Rito and the Korok case is out of the question anyway, because that needs a lot more time (like, several millions for such severe (fish-bird, flesh-wood) changes). A reason why the Kokiri in OOT could have temporarily taken on humanlike shapes could be because of Link. And yes, that suggestion IS given. We have never seen Kokiri/Koroks of different ages, suggesting that they might not do the reproduction thing. But the foremost argument is that Fado appeared out of Makar on BOTH occasions (Makar even changing into him on one occasion), while Laruto always appeared next to Medli. Like Fado and Makar are the same being, and Medli and Laruto two different ones. Fado-Makar; Check at 4:31 & 4:53 Laruto-Medli; Check at 0:30 & 1:08 Sorry, but I couldn't find the other two scenes.
It is unknown how OOA and TWW relate timeline wise and the PH Zora A. live in a different dimension and B. are River Zoras. Anyway, if that is your answer, at least the "Zora-are-gone"-argument has to be removed, as it is not proof anymore.
WoooH! That's not true. I always thought the Hylian/Sheikah/Gerudo-blood thing was bull, and I know I am not the only one. It is not taken as a fact at all. As for the Zora-Rito attraction, here's another one: Zora Link and the girl of the chest maze in MM. There is some attraction between the two species. What that means for the possible Rito-Zora relation is unclear, or rather, it can be interpreted as a thousand different things. Like I said, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with it. Evolution can never have been the reason for the possible transformation. I do not think one example can be used for the two entire species/populations.
Come to think of it, we're losing sight of things a little. This shouldn't be about whether the theory is true or not, but what arguments are legimate and how they should be phrased. I still think the culture one is way too farfetched to be worth of mentioning, and the Kokiki-Korok "parallel" A. not comparable and B. not relevant. If you want, we can ask someone else (Adam?) to give his/her opinion on the relevance/fact of a couple of the arguments. IfIHaveTo 12:50, 29 November 2007 (EST)

They pay respects to Zephos and Cyclos, yes.
Valoo's anger isn't actually endangering the Rito. Only making it impossible for Komali to get wings.
In OoT, the Zora are specifically stated as being responsible for Hyrule's water. As for Medli...she is one of the highest ranking members in the tribe, and their is no actual evidence against her being noble, besides lack of title tacked on to her name. And it is specifically said both in OoT and TP that the Zora worship at the temple.
...the emblem is a rectangular version of the Zora emblem. It's really not as far off as you claim. Yes, it's not obvious, and I could be seeing things that weren't meant to be there, but it does have the "three crescents with sphere in middle", adapted into rectangles.
"Evolution in both the Rito and the Korok case is out of the question anyway, because that needs a lot more time (like, several millions for such severe (fish-bird, flesh-wood) changes)." what about the Zora being magically evolved from fish, like their background states?
Again, I don't see what you mean by "fairytale-mermaid culture". If you mean "Little Mermaid", it's nothing like that. If you mean selkies, also nothing like that. Hell, I can't think of any fairytale mermaids "cultures" remotely like the Zora, except for being aquatic. The closest you could say is Laruto and Rutela's clothing, and that's actually fairly persian-looking (for Rutela), or simple medieval possibly Roman (for Laruto).
...the PH Zora do not live in a different dimension. How does everybody forget about Linebeck? Whatever Oshus meant by "his world", it was clearly not the Great Sea that you spent the game on, or Linebeck would have stayed with the spirits.
"Like I said, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with it. Evolution can never have been the reason for the possible transformation."...except that that is what the theory of evolution is specifically for. Evolution itself requires no set length of time - in fact, the most recent theories have that it can happen very fast, and if the Rito are not actually full-birdmen (since they require magic to get their wings...), they could still be quite piscine - after all, there are plenty of fish with beaks, and Zora already have scaled feet, so it really wouldn't be that far of a change.
Okay, I'm calling BS on that one. Makar is NOT Fado, and just because the spirit slides out from behind him gives no indication that he is changing into Fado or is his reincarnation. At most, it is due to their spiritual nature, whereas Rito and Zora are more fleshly beings. As for the Kokiri being human because of Link - no, that indication is not given. The gossip stones, what hylians know of Kokiri, and the way they live indicate that they are not merely in disguise - hell, the Kokiri sword is a "traditional sword of the Kokiri", and is made for their proportions, not a Korok-like one. They did not suddenly develop the tradition in the six or so years Link was living with them. The Deku Tree is said to be somehow their father, so they might possibly be some kind of manifestations of him, or whatever craziness, but the description given for what happened them is not "they no longer needed human forms to dwell among men" (since they actually do more of that than they did in OoT...), and almost word for word fits the definition of evolution.
I still think the culture is much more similar than any other race, but fine. However, the Kokiri-Korok parallel IS there.KrytenKoro 11:26, 3 December 2007 (EST)
Also, Jabu-Jabu is outright called a fish at least in OoA, and I think OoT as well. Plus the whole "scaled fins" thing. I know the tail is messed up, but they make that mistake for mermaids too.KrytenKoro 11:46, 3 December 2007 (EST)

What, yes? No more reaction than that?
And then there's the fierce, polluted winds damaging part of the island, those semi-earthquakes and if I'm not mistaken, the volcano being more active (I vaguely remember the lava at the start of the temple being gone when Valoo is saved, but I'm not sure).
Again, you don't know. Oh, what was the quote again? "Prince Komali's grandmother saw me carrying it one day and called out to me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the curves of the instrument, you see. She eventually became my teacher, and that's how I became the attendant you see before you today." - Doesn't sound anything like "I'm of noble blood, which is wh I became Valoo's attendant". Yeah, there is no evidence against her being noble, but there is no evidence indicating she is either. It's just an assumption. It is not fair to state something based on nothing and then expecting the other party to come up with counter evidence. Like if I'd say Zelda and Link in OOT are brother and sister, because Zelda's mother is not seen or mentioned and we know Link's mother died when he was just a baby, there's nothing you can say to disprove it, despite how unlikely it is.
Quotes from OOT and TP regarding Zoras, praying and the temple:
  • Kaepora Gaebora: "At the lake bottom there is a Water Temple used to worship the water spirits. The Zoras are guardians of the temple. Hoo hoo."
  • Some people: "If the people who came to worship from far away heard that, they'd be very disappointed...", "But I'll bet that the folks coming to worship will stay away for a while... Those people who make a living off of those coming to worship at the lake must be struggling..."
  • Unless you have another quote I don't know off, these are the only ones about worshipping and the water temple/lakebed temple (or are they talking about Lanayru? Regardless, there's no other such quote for the Lake Hylia area). None of these says that the Sea Zoras worship/pray at the temple.
It is far off. If those other two clearly are the Zora emblem, than this never can be "a third reference". I've been looking at the emblem for five minutes now, comparing it with medli's outfit, komali's necklace (or what was visible from it), the zora's sapphire, actually trying to make it look the same. It just doesn't, unless you desperately, really want to. Following this logic, the Triforce and the Zora emblem even look like eachother.
You mean sweet's description? The same site that doesn't know how to spell Daira and Wizzrobe? The same site that doesn't know itself when it talks about a Zola (wrong name even) and a Zora? The same site that doesn't make a difference between poes, ghinis and ghosts? The same site that has not been properly updated since maybe the Oracle games? Please tell me that is not the description you are refering to!
Well then we call it primitive atlantis. I don't know a better way to describe it. Does it matter, I wonder. They are not comparable to any actually existing culture, which is different for the case of the Rito who can be linked to a real-world culture. Let's take a look at the two cultures you compared the Sea Zora's with: Inca does not equal persia/rome.
Yes, they do live in a different dimension. I have no clue what Linebeck (or rather, his ship) was doing there. Nor do I know why Link does still have the hourglass, but not the sword. All I know is that Oshus and the spirits said: "The time for you to return to your world is near... The door to your world is about to open." They were in the world of the Ocean King, and were sent back at the end, which explains the ten minute-difference mentioned by Tetra's crew. For all I care, Linebeck entered that world earlier, or maybe he's a reference to Marin. PH is not the same dimension as TWW, or at least, it is strongly debatable.
Just out of pure curiosity, what kind of fish have beaks?
And how fast can evolution go for bigger lifeforms then? Did the theory of millions of years get replaced with one about, say, 500 years? Evolution does not go that fast.
Interesting. So I have to believe your theory about the zora's sapphire, but you immediately "call BS" on my theory about the Kokiri/Koroks, obviously not even reading what I wrote? I never said that Fado slides out of Makar thus he changes in him. When Makar awakens as a Sage, he becomes Fado and Link sees this happening. When Medli awakens, she sees Laruto and the two communicate on some astral level I guess, as Link obviously only sees Medli fainting. Fado and Makar become one. Medli and Laruto stay separate. Then, when they bring power to the Master Sword, Fado slides out of and back into Makar. Laruto appears next to Medli and then disappears. To say their spiritual nature is to blame does not seem like a satisfying explanation to me. As for their human forms, it was merely a suggestion. Please don't shoot me for it. Then they have been human shaped for a longer while. Big deal. I still have not seen an argument that makes the Kokiri-Korok-Zora-Rito link sound more logical. Yes, both races have/could have changed.... you know what?, I accept the argument, provided that it nature-of-the-change wise is not linked to the Rito (just a matter of wording). Something along the lines of: "The Kokiri are stated to have changed into the Koroks, proving that (etc,). As such, this adds to the theory of (etc.)."
Not in OOT, that I can guarantee you. Also, OOA: "Calling him a fish is an insult!" - King Zora. IfIHaveTo 13:24, 5 December 2007 (EST)
P.S., I went ahead and edited this small thing about the habitats. People seem to think it refers to the Gerudo, which is not true. Zuna (though that is the Gerudo Desert as well), Kokiri/Korok (think TP for example), Deku Scrubs, etc., all have at times not appeared in games featuring their habitats, making a link to Gerudo Desert a little.... odd.IfIHaveTo 03:38, 7 December 2007 (EST)

I had never heard that quote before. Thank you. Fine, I accept that she was not chosen because she was noble.
...well, seeing as the Zora are the only ones who can reach the temple, ever...and it never says people worship on the far shore from the temple...
I can easily see a rectangular Zora symbol in it, but fine. If you can't see it, it's not as clear as I thought, so can't be used as evidence.
The TP text is in referene to Lanayru's Shrine.
"The Zoras are usually the protectors of Lakebed Temple, so I think they should help us..."
Also, the Zora emblem is all over the temple, and it is said that they built it. One would assume they actually worship at a place that they built, is decorated by them, they protect, and only they can enter.
Please don't tell me that you misinterpreted what King Zora was trying to say that badly. Okay, fine - Maku Tree calls it a fish, over and over. yes, I am. I'm unaware of Daira actually being given an English name, Wizrobe is the correct spelling (MM is the ONLY game that has called it "Wizzrobe" - its been Wizrobe in TWW, TMC,...); it's been updated at least since TWW, Poes/Ghinis/Ghosts - the games don't make much of a difference either. When have any of them appeared in the same game? Zola - actually, that was the accepted name until OoA called them "river zoras and sea zoras".
"Primitive Atlantis" - okay, I don't know how to stress this enough - SETTING IS NOT CULTURE! There are Jews in America - you don't have to live in Israel to be considered "Jewish". Culture is determined by how your society is set up - the most Rito have for culture besides this is that they wear clothes appropriate for mountains and high sky.
PH "different world: - okay, no. How about the line "The Ghost Ship will no longer terrorize your world"? It certainly was terrorizing PH's Great Sea! How about the fact that Tetra had good knowledge of "this part of the sea" - if there was a "window", how would she have gotten that knowledge? How about Linebeck never mentions needing to leave this "separate world" to get home, or Link being trapped in this world never mentioned, whereas its harped on in LA, MM, OoA, and OoS? How about Linebeck being familiar with everyone on Mercay Island, or Jolene and Joanne being native to the area (who've known Linebeck "for ages"?)
Isn't it much, much simpler that maybe Oshus is referring to how everything flashed before you fight Bellum? Or even the "world under the sea"? The whole point of Link seeing Linebeck is to point towards this - pulling out the Phantom Hourglass proves it wasn't a dream, so the Linebeck thing must mean something different.
Halfbeak, Beaked Salmon, Nomorhampus, Parrotfish - its not rare, at all.
Look up "punctuated equilibrium" in wikipedia. Yes, evolution is normally slow, but it speeds up a lot in instances of climactic upheaval. Guess what a global flood would qualify under? Granted, in the real-world its still a few thousand years, but again, magic speeds things up.
"10 minutes" - Ciela is the Spirit of Time and Courage. This is an important part of the final boss battle. Especially with her master (a god powered by an extreme amount of force gems, the "source of all magic"), she's going to have some power over time. PH has similarities to LA, but its differences are also important.
No, I've said over and over that it may not be as obvious as I think it is. However, just because Fado appears behind/above Makar, it is insane to assume that this means Makar is "becoming" Fado. Makar also calls Fado his ancestor, not his "self", or anything implying that he has become Fado:
"And my ancestors are most satisfied."
I can't find a video of Makar under the waterfall, so I'm not sure if you mean this as for when Makar awakens, but otherwise, Makar and Fado are presented as unique beings - Fado is strongly implied to be his ancestor, but Makar is simply not Fado.KrytenKoro 22:01, 11 December 2007 (EST)

If there is one thing I hate, it's that "backspace" puts you back a page if you haven't selected anything. I lost a lot of text in a mere second. :*( Ah well, back from scratch.

I agree that it seems most logical that if anyone prays at the temple, it would be the Sea Zoras, though there is no 100% certainty. I'd like to remind you that Zelda's Lullaby is needed to change the waterlevel in OOT. Zelda's Lullaby is not a Zora-related song. Also, the Zora Tunic does not seem to be "the latest invention" and might be created to allow non-Zoras to enter the temple. Also, while they may have built it, the "Sage Temples" are part of a bigger project. Any race having built such a temple doesn't necessarily had to build it for themselves.
I have barely played the Oracle games, so anything I say regarding them might be wrong. However, the text dumps of that game teach me the following: there are three "quote types" relating to fish. One type is about Ricky (as such ignorable), one is from King Zora, clearly identifying Jabu-Jabu as the fish you are talking about (but also stating "fish" is an insult). The third type, I assume, comes from the Maku Tree. "...An essence? Inside a fish?" and "That's weird! An essence is echoing from inside a fish.". If my assumption is correct, I have this question for you. Suppose that Nintendo had altered the quote to "...An essence? Inside a mammal?", how many people would have found that hint useful? None. Fact is, games that do not care that much about technical facts (such as hammerspace, Link not dying after being shot from a cannon) are better off calling a whale a fish rather than a mammal in any quote which is vague on purpose.
Please don't take this too harsh, but you really should check this wiki's articles or other sources before stating stuff about the Zelda universe that someone else just said wasn't true. Daira is the ony known, and as such official name of those creatures. The name is written in the booklet of TAOL, stating it is Daira and not Daria. seems to have misspelled it, but never corrected. Wizzrobe is the official name, not Wizrobe. It was misspelled in Majora's Mask and misspelled on Every other game and source claims it's Wizzrobe. Ghinis/Ghosts and Poes are not the same creatures and should not be treated as such, regardless whether or not they ever appeared in the same game or not. They have a different history, different appearance, different attack pattern etc. How come the Picori and Minish do get separate articles, but these creatures don't? How come each of the Poe Sisters get their own (nearly identical) articles, rather than share one, if they are more alike than Poes and Ghinis? As for the Zora; yes, they have not been called River Zora until Oracle of Ages, but the name Zora goes back all the way to A Link to the Past. With The Legend of Zelda's rerelease on the GBA, the name has been permanently corrected to Zora. Everything indicates that Zola was just a one-time typo. Also, I said "properly updated" and not just "updated". How come I can find info on MM nobody characters like Shiro and Professor Shikashi (that guy had a name?), but not on important TWW characters (Laruto and Fado)? And after that, things get completely hilarious (read: there's barely anything written about subjects from other games). I do not take anything states as true, because it proves on every single page it's untrustworthy.
Okay, I'm sorry I am unable to find a real world cultural comparision to the Zora culture. However, with fairytale mermaid/primitve atlantis, I am not refering to a setting. Well, not really. The thing is, any fictional aquatic culture in any game of movie had a certain atmosphere that the human mind seems to associate with a life under the waves. This atmosphere is present in the Zora culture.
So? A door can be seen from two rooms as well. The Ghost Ship for as far as I understand is a portal between both worlds. Therefore, it is in both worlds at the same time. How about the ten minutes versus whatever time it took Link to find and defeat Bellum? Tetra's crew can't have lost track of the ship in those ten minutes, yet the ship was doing it's own thing in PH's world. *I do not remember such a quote from Tetra nor can I find anything in the text dumps. When did she say it and what did she say exactly?* Linebeck likely didn't know he was in a different realm. Suppose the PH realm and TWW realm weren't the same, than Link didn't know he was somewhere else either. Tetra at least certainly didn't ("Our world? So what is the world that we are in now? What is this place..."). That argument goes both ways. Also, just because earlier stories "immediately" stated Link wasn't in Hyrule anymore, does that mean it is impossible for a later game to change this rule? No, any Zelda game may tell the story in the order and way it deems most fitting. Like OOT being the only game that did not immediately reveal Zelda to be a Sage, Midna's true form not being seen until the end of PH (whereas Daphnes and Ezlo could be seen roughly halfway), etc. As for Linebeck being familiar with PH's people, imagine this. Linebeck is a sailor who seems to travel a lot. It is not unlikely that he either doesn't have a home (his boat being his home) or that he did not intend on retruning home any time soon. How should he have known that he is no longer in his world? Suppose that he got in PH's world only half a year ago; that's more than enough to meet the people of Mercay and get acquainted. Suppose he met Jolene roughly at the same time (he never met Joanne, as they did not recognize when they met. If she knows about him, it's because of Jolene's letters), her quotes make sense, but should not be taken literally. "Fiend! It's been 100 years since our paths last crossed... Oh, what? You aren't Linebeck!" and "I found you, Linebeck! It's been ages since our last encounter!" are examples of the common practice to exaggerate things to make the message more clear. Don't tell me you have never said that something has been ages, while it may have only been two weeks. It at least certainly hasn't been 100 years.
Linebeck and the Hourglass are the weak points in the theory. However, it's even harder to argue that the two worlds are the same. Again, why did the hourglass come with Link, but not the rest of the sword? I'd like to refer to TMC as proof that the dream world affects the real world. Remember that sleeping "game"? Link went asleep in that odd machine in one of the houses of Hyrule Castle Town and dreamt about a dungeon filled with monsters. Defeating them gained him a piece of heart, which he still had when he awoke. Also, Oshus' home (his temple) is located in PH's great sea, and so are the spirits' homes and upgrade island, indicating that that indeed is their world.
Global flood does still not seem like a logical climatic upheavel that would change fish into birds.
Not becoming Fado. They "are" the same being. You could say at best that his "old Fado side" is awakening, like remembering a long forgotten memory. Also, I wouldn't know why ancestor could not refer to a former self, if only because of lack of a better word. Suppose that the Kokiri/Koroks indeed all reincarnate and that that is their form of "staying in existance as a race", the word ancestor could very well be used simply to refer to the person "before oneself". Check Wiktionary's definition of ancestor. Ancestor could very well be used in that way, especially looking at the latin roots of the word. And yes, I was refering to Makar's awakening under the waterfall. He actually physically changes into Fado then. However, this is merely a theory, much like the Zora-Rito one, and I already said I agree that the Kokiri comparision stays up, provided it isn't just summed up like the other arguments. It needs a bit more substance. IfIHaveTo 17:50, 23 December 2007 (EST)

Continued on Archive-03