We need to come up with a way to write this in a non-POV way. Is there any canon evidence to suggest that the Rito are evolved from the Zora? The Rito post-office guy has a character model that bears a striking resemblance to the postman from OoT/MM, and this suggests a human ancestor. --Jin 00:18, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
- Considering that the Zora symbol appears on Medli's dress, in addition to several other references cited in the article directly from the game, the theory of Zora evolution is just about as sure as the existence of gravity (to which is known, but not the source of gravity). I think the article should state evolution as a legend rather than a theory at this point. --Marinko 11:48, 18 May 2007
- The problem is, it may not be evolution. They could have been transformed by magic, and probably were. Therefore, to call it evolution would be inaccurate. Obviously, the entire thing is a subject of debate and probably should be left out of the article altogether, or at least called something rather neutral. --Jase 13:02, 18 May 2007 (PDT)
I may express a point of view, if I can ever find the time to read it all!! --Adam 14:34, 5 December 2007 (EST)
Stop removing counter evidence for the Zora-Rito evolution theory that is of the same value as pro-eviden (that's not a word, is it?). I admit that it may look a little sloppy now. I'm prepared to change it into a better looking section one of these days, but please let it stay the way it is now, so that I can easily edit it (without forgetting any topics).
I'd also like to note that whatever some people state, it's nothing more than a theory. Many people do not believe it, and their opinion is not of lesser value than that of those who don't. Hey, I believe Fado is Mido's sister, but you don't see me removing the counter arguments, now do you? Anything that is not downright stated and has believers and non-believers should have a few counter arguments. Simple as that.
Now, I'd like to have one question answered though. What does "Monarchial system like the Zoras" mean? How many monarchial system do exist? Like, how is the monarchial system of the Deku, the Hylians and the Ikanans (whatever they are) different?IfIHaveTo 02:21, 8 November 2007 (EST)
- The Zora have a monarchical system in which they worship a god, and have their king as a supreme ruler who's primary duty is to relay that god's commands, and an attendant to the god. Or at least, that's how I understood it.
- So Medli would be analogous to Ruto, the Chieftan to King Zora. The Hylians, Ikanans, and Deku have a traditional monarchy.
- How does that Rito resemble the Postman, anyway? Its only claimed by him on the figurine, anyway.
- As for the interbreeding thing - it does not explain why the Zora emblem is prevalent even upon the higher members of the Rito, and its the exact same argument as point 3. Thus, point 3 is the only one really claiming anything in relation to the argument.188.8.131.52 13:01, 8 November 2007 (EST)
- Okay, I get the monarchial system thing now. It indeed resembles each other's, except that the monarchial system of the Zoras seems to make the royal family responsible, while that is not the case with the Rito. Also, they use a different title for their leader (King vs Chieftain). They still differ from each other in ways that are just as prominent as the ways they also differ from others.
Figurine: Koboli is the third generation in a family of postmen, but rummor that an ancestor of his in a ago gone by was also a postman...
That's how they resemble each other. Without the figurine's description, I wouldn't have considered it enough, but these two facts together are strong. Then again, a "rumor" is nothing more and nothing less than a rumor.
- I have ONLY seen the Zora symbol on two occasions: Medli's clothes (which can be explained by her heritage). And on ONE of Komali's outfits (come to think of it, it might have been his second outfit's necklace). So, where else? Komali's I can give a few theories for if you want.IfIHaveTo 14:03, 8 November 2007 (EST)
In reply to the recent edits of the Zora/Rito evolution, I have the following to say:
- The Zelda Universe is pure fiction. Like hammerspace, the rules and definitions of reality do not always apply. While I'll be the last to shout "magic" as answer to a fictional issue (I absolutely hate that), it cant be ignored in this case. If the Zora made the change to Rito, magic is the only answer and it also might be the case for a Zora with Rito descendants. The terms of species and race are used interchangeably for the creatures-of-one-group-with-a-similar-appearance in the series. But we have no clue how the "races" relate to eachother! Who can give me proof a Zora and Gerudo can't have kids (that are capable of getting kids later)? Who can give me proof a Yook and Korok can't have kids together? No one can, because the series never stated anything. You know, for all I care, Laruto slayed a Rito girl, did the little healing song, put on the mask and went on making one of Medli's ancestors with another Rito.
- About the Rito resembling the Zora qua culture; stop saying that. I already said earlier that there are just as many differences (I have yet to see a Zora mail(wo)man, hear them call their leader "chieftain", etc.) as similarities. Secondly, and I'm only realising this right now, people consider the Zora and Rito similar qua culture based on OOT's interpretation of Zoras. But how comparable are the Rito to TP's Zoras (I'm leaving the OOA Zoras out of this for obvious reasons) for instance? Now, one could argue that game came later, so it doesn't apply. But if the two were intended to be similar, wouldn't Nintendo keep them closer related? The current arguments are the best I have seen as of yet: they are stand-alone, non-sidetrack arguments and no side is being favoured (at least, not to my knowledge). IfIHaveTo 08:16, 20 November 2007 (EST)
- Sigh* Here I am, trying to discuss what to do with the zora-rito evo theory. Here I am, replying to an invisible, silent force once again.
- Sea Zoras and Rito DO NOT have similar cultures or whatever. I explained that twice already, and since I'm not getting a reply, I am reluctant to explain it once more. You know, I have a problem with theories and opinions being presented as facts to support another theory. I feel like I'm dealing with people of the kind that is convinced Julius Cesar and Jesus Christ are the same person based on "facts" such at that both have the initials J.C..
- The other arguments are facts. They started the theory. No one is able to convinve me that anyone thought the two cultures were similar, prior to having met Laruto and hearing of this theory for the first time. The theory creates its own proof so to say.
- Before I end my message, I'd like to reveal the horrible truth to the people here: I'm a Dutchie; ENGLISH IS NOT MY MAIN LANGUAGE!! There, I said it. To say my "grammar is appalling" is very, very rude and shows no signs of respect whatsoever; even if it would be my main language. I wish people would have been this "precise" earlier, so that making a reasonable text out of a pathetic list would not be up to someone with "appalling grammar". I am very well aware that my English is not perfect, though I doubt it is thát bad. IfIHaveTo 07:46, 21 November 2007 (EST)
- P.S. I want Medli and Komali specifically mentioned, because there's an odd rumour going around that the zora symbol can be found everywhere on Dragon Roost, which is not true. At least, I couldn't find anything when I went looking and no one as of yet has been able to mention another spot than the ones mentioned. IfIHaveTo 11:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)
- ...Zora/Rito culture - both have a setup in which there is one main guardian deity as supreme leader, and a king/cheiftain as intercessary, with the princess as the god's attendant. Yes, they have different professions - because one group has wings and the other doesn't. Zoras were in charge of keeping charge of the Zora River. The Rito can hardly do that. Besides which, not all Rito are postman, and not all postmen are Rito.
- What's so different about TP Zora? The only known difference is that apparently Jabu-Jabu is missing. They still have a very chieftain/prince-based system, without strong parallels to that of the Hylians.
- "grammar is appalling" - It was. I'm sorry, would you like me to just change that grammar, and go through an edit war when you disagree? I was not critiquing you, I was critiquing the grammar, and I'm sorry if you took it as a personal insult. However, that grammar was appalling, and that's why I reworded it.
- On another note, how is there not a parallel to Fado and Makar? That's part of the genesis for this theory - Kokiri explicitly evolved into Korok, and Rito and Zora have a "descendant" type thing going on to.
- Also "Despite them all being Hylians, among their (supposed) ancestors were a Kokiri, a Sea Zora and a Goron." - what was wrong with wording it "it is not certain whether whether they are descendants of these or the previous sages"?
- "Furthermore, many races have been absent in games that did display their, in other games, confirmed habitats." - this can only really refer to Gerudo, which is why I linked to it. This is the appalling grammar I was talking about, by the way - why was it reverted?
- "Even if this was a change enforced by the Gods to ensure Hyrule would be left a secret, it would be odd that the Fishmen, who are confirmed to have some knowledge of Hyrule, are allowed to stay the way they are. Finally, the Zora symbol on the two Rito children's clothes can be explained by Medli's heritage. If at any time a Rito and Sea Zora decided to live together and get children, it is likely that the Zora would bring some of their belongings with them, explaining how the dress and necklace could have found their way in Rito possession." - Same as this - I removed no information, and only endeavored to make the wording more clear - why was this reverted?KrytenKoro 04:41, 26 November 2007 (EST)
- As for the figurine of Koboli - first off, it says "a postman". Big whoop. While indeed, it seems to allude to The Postman, it even qualifies it as a rumor. Even then, if Hylians did contribute to the Rito? It would still count as Zora to Rito. If Mules are able to start a new species, the ancestor species will still be Horse+Donkey. It won't suddenly be "the species with no ancestor".184.108.40.206 04:44, 26 November 2007 (EST)
- both have a setup in which there is one main guardian deity - Partially agreed (point 5)
- supreme leader and a king/chieftain as intercessary - Okay, this is regardless of the comparision between the Zora/Rito. When was it specifically stated that that is the relation between the deities and the leaders?
- with the princess - Medli is NOT a *bleeping* princess
- as the god's attendant - No, Ruto fed the whale deity. Whether she was his attendant or not is unknown.
- You get what I mean; there are more/just as many differences than/as there are similarities. How about the overall culture? Mayan vs Fairytale-mermaid? How about my argument about the OOT Zora being the only ones comparable? Jabu-Jabu left them! Like, how long have they been without a guardian? How does that keep things comparable? Because then there are way more similarties with other races: the Deku, the Hylians, the Ikanans (whatever they were), the Cobble Kingdom's inhabitants; without a deity (which is the case, unless we are going to play the "if"-game), it's just a regular monarchy.
- Look, even if the grammar was appaling, there was no need to phrase it like that, or even mention it at all. You know, every time I changed the text, I took your edits into account, looking carefully what was the better sentence (btw. you kept removing the words "the fact that" somewhere, which broke the unity of the sentence, thus I always changed that back). I did my best to make something good out of a meager list and the opinions of others. It doesn't matter whether I didn't do it well. I tried to compromise qua grammar and arguments; I tried. A little more respect for my work wouldn't hurt.
- With all due respect, saying the Rito Chieftain has a variation of the emblem is in my opinion a case of extremely creative thinking, two or three steps too far. This is searchign for meager bits that could be proof assuming the theory is correct. That's not the way to treat possible evidence.
- I am not saying there is no parallel. However, I, as you may have noticed, do not want *anything up for debate* mentioned as evidence (as it is debatable) and certainly not as fact. The Sages-thing is already shaky, due to the Imprisoning War theories. I'm not entirely sure about the situation. Regardless, why does everybody keep going on about the word "descendant"? Laruto more often uses the word "bloodline", specifically family related. While I don't believe the Zora evolved in the Rito, I do not doubt Medli truly is Laruto's descendant. Unless of course the japanese word for bloodline also doesn't mean family-related. *gets the feeling she's forgetting something* Oh yeah, about Makar-Fado-Medli-Laruto-Zora-Rito-Kokiri-Korok: it is up for debate-not comparable. SOme people believe the Korok are the "original" form, and the Kokiri were only something temporal. The transformation was simply reverting back to the original shape once the invisible/human form did not have any use anymore. Uhm, my user page has some info on it, if you care to read. The point is, while I understand your wish for having it mentioned, I don't think the two races are comparable enough. You know, with Kokiri/Koroks seemingly being ageless, magical creatures that reincarnate rather than reproduce.
- My problem with the sentence "the previous sages", is that we have not clue what the *bleep* Nintendo is doing right now with the Sages. The games (Wind Waker and A Link to the Past) seem to suggest it's bloodline only. Zelda seems to suggest it's bloodline only. Why wouldn't the "previous" sages (you're not refering to the TP ones, right?) be family? It's an awkward turn around the subject.
- What did the text used to be?
- That's not the point. Than still we have horses and donkeys. They did not evolve or transform or anything. Only one child did. I'm not arguing Medli's heritage. That, I am convinced of. But to say the whole race evolved or transformed from another whole race, that is way more apart than horses, donkeys and mules, that just is too much.IfIHaveTo 14:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)
- Well, there's that King Zora XVI guards the entrance to Zora's Fountain, and "As chieftain of the Rito, my first
responsibility is to solve this problem.". For Medli - first off, its a comparison, as she's obviously high up in the Rito hierarchy. Second off - how do you know? There's a prince in the aerie, and the prince's grandmother is her mentor. In any case, what matters is the obvious similarity, which no other race has.
- "Whale Deity" - you want to talk about "bleeping"? It's a fricking fish. Everything in Zora's Domain is a fish. There are no whales, especially that far from sea. About the attendant - that's what an attendant does, is attend to someone.
- Cultures - ...Rito are not Mayan. Inca, maybe, but only in that they dwell in the mountains and wear appropriate clothing. And "Fairytale-mermaid" really isn't a "culture"-type - both tribes worship a guardian deity, much more than other tribes are seen to (beyond the Korok and Kokiri, and how's that for a parallel?), and both have a king who has the deity as one of his chief duties, and some kind of noble who attends to the deity's daily needs. They populace itself is very centered around the tribe's almost singular duty, and spread out across Hyrule, unlike many of the other tribes, to perform it - for Zora, this is ensuring the water's flow and its quality. For Rito, this appears to be the postal service, though otherwise both tribes stay in their mountain domain. Furthermore, a lower royal of both tribes takes care of a Spiritual Stone/Pearl, unlike the Korok/Kokiri and Jabun, where the Deity holds it, or the Gorons, where the patriarch holds it. That's a hell of a lot of similarity in culture. You could even mention that protecting a temple, for the Zora, is a tribal duty, not just that of a sage - in both OoT, MM, and TP.
- The TP and MM Zora - while the MM Zora seem to be much more lenient in that regard (it is a parallel universe, after all), the TP Zora still have the devotion to duty thing that other tribes are lacking. And while Jabu-Jabu certainly seems to be missing (though we can't be certain, as we can't actually visit that part of the Domain in TP), they still "worship at the Lakebed Temple", which in OoT (if it is the Water Temple, though that's almost obvious) is where they worship water spirits - which could very neatly include Jabu-Jabu (hell, Jabun is the Water/Sea Spirit in TWW, and he's almost the same creature). Yes, they have less emphasis on it, but you only meet two royal Zora anyway, and one of them is more busy with getting the other to be responsible (and being dead). Or, conceivable, Jabu-Jabu died or fled when Zora's Fountain froze again. Whatever he did in OoT, one would think.
- Or, and it pains me to say it, if TP is in the "Child Timeline", you would hardly expect the Rito to act more like them than the OoT Zora.
- "Rito Chieftain's Emblem" - yes, it's a bit farther than the emblem on Medli and Komali, but it still seems to clearly be there - three orbs inside three arcs. It's much more rectangular, but it's clearly there. However, it is a bit farther than would be worth claiming as concrete evidence - as soon as I can hook up to my copy of TWW, I'll be able to perform an actual search.
- ...I'm still not seeing what was the problem with changing the grammar. It was not a personal attack - it was an explanation for why I changed it. I did respect that you were trying to compromise, which is why I didn't just remove the lines entirely. However, the grammar was, indeed, lacking.
- "SOme people believe the Korok are the "original" form, and the Kokiri were only something temporal. The transformation was simply reverting back to the original shape once the invisible/human form did not have any use anymore." - they "changed into a form more suiting there environment" (I think the game phrases it slightly differently, but...); that is almost word for word the definition of species adaptation and macro-evolution. Yes, the Kokiri and Korok are forest spirits, but that would still be evolution. Besides, why would the human forms need to be in the first place? I can understand Korok forms being useful for flying and floating - but the Kokiri in OoT were already totally isolated, and would have no need for a form that could interact with humans. And no suggestion is ever given that they reincarnate.
- "But to say the whole race evolved or transformed from another whole race" - and that is the fatal flaw in the arguments against this theory. There is NOT the claim that all Zora became all Rito - only that the ancestors of the Rito are the Zora. Oracle of Ages seems to clearly show that the Zora are doing fine for themselves in other lands - PH shows this as well. The question is not that all Zora went extinct - that's not even what evolution would imply. The question is whether Zora are the ancestors of the Rito - and Medli's instance seems to clearly point out that they are, the additional similarities notwithstanding.
- "that just is too much" - disregarding the instances of OoA (if it is in "another timeline") and PH (since those are River Zora) - why would that be too much? The Koroks, in that game, blatantly show that it is possible. The dwindling blood of the Hylians is accepted without thought as a main factor in the ancestry of "Hyruleans" (which is a fan-made misnomer, as all who live in Hyrule are Hyruleans, and many "Hyruleans" don't live in Hyrule). The same is thought of the Sheikah, and Gerudo (though, those are all humans, so it doesn't really count, as they are the same species - however, TP and OoT seem to indicate that Zora might be able to interbreed with humans as well - then again, only in that Ruto or that one girl in TP are attracted to Link/Ralis). All the theory is saying is that Zora are the main biological ancestors of the Rito. The Zora can still exist, side-by-side with the Rito. It's called an evolutionary offshoot. The only real argument against the theory is that there seems to be hints at a possibility for Zora-Hylian romance, and the offhand joke about the Postman. And then, that the culture and biological form more closely resembles the Zora than the Hylians, points that it is the major contributor. All the hullabaloo about "but why can't the Zora just live in the sea" is a misunderstanding of what evolution is.KrytenKoro 06:36, 29 November 2007 (EST)
Discussion continued on Archive-02