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Talk:Dark Rites

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Sacred Flames

The differences between the two sets of flames that I put in before were just observations, and I'm not really seeing why they couldn't be put in. I wasn't trying to point out any kind of connection between them (for the record, I think the Dark Rite flames were created to counteract the Sacred Flames and may have played a role in forging Demise's Sword, but I know there's vitually nothing to support this idea, thus making it unfit for the article). And everything I said was true- in SS, Link had to strike three Goddess Crests and light the Sacred Flames to power up the Master Sword, which Zelda then had to bless to bring out its true potential, allowing the sword to be used against Demise; in OoX, Link had to stop the Dark Flames from being lit (which he ultimately failed to do), and Zelda was then kidnapped to be sacrificed to revive Ganon. These facts directly contrast one another, thus making the two sets of flames opposites. This may have been deliberate, or only coincidental, but it ultimately doesn't matter, since, again, I'm not theorizing any kind of connection- just pointing out a quirk of storyline. With this in mind, may I put the trivia back? Setras 03:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an admin or anything, but the connection just seems really tenuous to me. Yes, that's what the Sacred Flames are, yes, that's what the Dark Rites are. But there's more different between them than similar: the Sacred Flames are already there, just need to be used, while the Dark Rites flames have elaborate rituals behind summoning them; the colors differ; Zelda in the Dark Rites is used only because she is "pure", not necessarily because she is Zelda. The Sacred Flames bear a lot more resemblance, as they are intended to, to the Pendants/Spiritual Stones/Goddess Pearls theme. I personally don't think that being "three multicolored flames" "makes" them opposites, any more than the flames involved in dungeon puzzles or used as bottle items would be. As such, if they're mentioned at all, I feel it should be in a "theories" or "see also" section that makes it clear that any resemblance is not obviously intended.KrytenKoro 14:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
My only input is that this would be regarded as a theory and not trivia. It's possible, I'll give it that, but it isn't confirmed.Justin(Talk) 11:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
But as I said before, I'm not proposing anything that would be theoretical. I think there is a connection between the different flames, but that's not what I was suggesting be put in the Trivia- I was merely trying to point out that, based on events that have been confirmed (having actually happened in-game), the two sets of flames can be regarded as opposites, because:
  • Link had to light the Sacred Flames, which he succeeded in doing; but prevent the Dark Rite flames from being lit, which he failed to do.
  • Zelda (as Hylia) was actively involved in using the Sacred Flames to create the Master Sword, and so defeat Demise; while the later Zelda was a helpless participant in using the Dark Rite flames to ressurect Ganon.
There's not enough here to establish any kind of theories on how the flames are connected, but as far as story goes, the two sets are activated and used in opposing ways, making them opposites in that regard. I'll put this under a Theory tag if you really think it should be, but again... it's not really a theory, just a story quirk. Setras (talk) 13:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
My first impression of that comparison is that it's complex and a bit of a stretch. I could take it or leave it, same as the trivia bullet that's there now.
It's a trinity. There's bound to be some coincidental overlap with other trinities in the series. You could relate it to just about any trinity if you tried hard enough. (In fact, I remember as a child, my devout grandmother once tried to convince that the Triforce was just a knock-off of the Trinity of Christian faith. Obviously this has no bearing on this discussion but... Does kinda prove my point. :P) — Hylian King [*] 14:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
That they have any relavance to each other, in-universe, is the theory. Granted the flames are meant to be one-per-game in what was originally a trilogy planned around the goddesses, but if anything they seem to be opposites of the oracles/goddesses, not the sacred flames. I would personally feel super uncomfortable implying that the developers were thinking of the Oracle games when designing the Sacred Flames, unless we come up with a source.
As far as Zelda is concerned, the game is explicit that she is not personally necessary; they just need a pure vessel to do the rites correctly, but still succeed without one.
As far as theory goes, it's pretty easy to rewrite this as one. The flames are lit by defying the purpose of the Oracles who represent/possibly are avatars of the goddesses. Although it's not explicit, it's fairly easy to interpret the flames as the Zelda equivalent of the stereotypical upside-down cross, a kind of ultimate blaspheming of a religious symbol. So, as such a blasphemy, they would end up as dark mirrors to the Sacred Flames used to glorify the goddesses. You could even incorporate Zelda as being; where the goddesses goodness helped a holy goddess become a virtuous mortal in order to save the world, the profanation of their symbol makes a virtuous mortal into a dark god in order to destroy the world.KrytenKoro (talk) 14:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no explicit connection between the Sacred Flames and the Dark Rites. The Sacred Flames are holy artifacts used to make a sword stronger; the Dark Rites are an evil ritual that uses suffering to resurrect a evil man. Yes they both three flames, and one is evil and one is good, but that doesn't give them a connection. I'm not going to revert this yet, because you will likely just put it back, but just know Trivia and Theories are not sections that we should add to every article. Champion of Nayru (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)Champion of Nayru
Indeed, there is no explicit connection- and I have never tried to say there was. All I was ever trying to say is... well, what's in the article now. This is not a connection, and I have not claimed it is. In all probability, it was just an unintentional coincidence. It is nothing more than a quirk of storyline, and I have treated it as such. If it is removed, then it's removed, but I am not, and never have been, proposing a connection or direct relation. What I put in is what I wanted to put in in the first place- a quick little mention of how the circumstances around the flames contrast one another. Setras (talk) 21:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no connection, I'm glad we agree. If there is no connection, there is no reason for the trivia. Zelda Wiki:Quality Standards demand the trivia be removed. Champion of Nayru (talk) 22:01, 25 October 2013 (UTC) Champion of Nayru
I agreed that there was no direct connection- as in, based on what we know, the developer's didn't intend the similarities, and they are not directly related in-universe. However, the circumstances surrounding the two sets of flames are indisputable (having actually occured in each game), and so pointing out how those circumstances differ from one another while still being objective (as I believe I have done here) is possible. Setras (talk) 22:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
If we allow any connection, there would be lots if irrelevant information. For example:
On the other hand here is a what an acceptable similarity trivia Would look like:
  • The Dark Rites is similar to Ganon's underlings' plan in The Adventure of Link to spill Link's blood onto Ganon's ashes to revive their master.
I am now going to delete the Sacred Flames trivia as per Zelda wiki:Quality Standards, and add the new trivia. Champion of Nayru (talk) 23:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)Champion of Nayru

Remove Theory

The theory that was recently added needs to be removed, or at least severely revised. It is poorly written and there are just too many errors in it.

1. Most of the theory basically just repeats what the article already says.
2. The Japanese word for destruction means "being destroyed?" That's pretty much a given.
3. The connection between Farore and the Flame of Despair is non-existent besides both being in a Linked Game.
4. Never is it said that the Oracles are avatars of the Goddesses.
5. There is no connection between Sorrow and Wisdom.
6. The Goddess Nayru is never stated to be the Goddess of Time
7. The connection between Courage and Despair is strenuous at best.
8. That they form a triangle is irrelevant, if you take any three points and connect them you always get a triangle. The flames are not triangular, furthering the dissimilarities between the Flames and the Triforce.
9. Hylia is irrelevant to the the discussion of the Triforce, especially as Zelda was not strictly necessary to the completion of the Dark Rites.

While there are some similarities, there really isn't enough evidence to warrant this theory. Maybe you disagree, but as is the theory of the Perversion of the Goddesses needs some serious work to be considered credible enough to be be listed on this page. Champion of Nayru (talk) 22:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC)Champion of Nayru

1 - so?
2 - not a given, there is a difference between the flame being associated with the idea of destroying things and the idea of being destroyed.
3/7 - Courage is Farore's domain, Despair is the opposite of Courage.
4 - Those that bear the names of the Goddesses then, the connection remains regardless of the precise word used.
5/6 - The connection for Nayru is based on Time, and the articles here state that Nayru created space-time and is likely the Goddess of Time occasionally referred to.
8 - fair enough.
9 - incorrect, the ritual failed precisely because it had to be Zelda they offered for the ritual, the same stated this outright.
I say there's plenty of evidence, the theory explains itself well with how Veran and Onox corrupt the spheres of domain of Din and Nayru, while the Farore-Despair connection is not supported by Twinrova capturing Farore or some such, it fits nicely with the other two, and overall the rituals, when analyzed, show themselves as a reversal of the Golden Goddesses, the domains of the Triforce, and Zelda as Hylia's moral vessel. Drake Clawfang (talk) 03:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Just my input on a few of the points:
3. The section as it's currently written doesn't really make much of a connection; but, despair can be considered to be the opposite of courage, as the latter involves acting despite fears and negative emotions, while the former involves being incapacitated by those very problems. Ergo, a connection between Farore and the Flame of Despair does still exist.
4. Though not explicitly stated, Hyrule Historia does suggest (on pg. 100) that the goddesses may in fact be directly intervening in the events of the Oracle games, meaning that yes, the Oracles may somehow be directly connected to the goddesses for whom they're named. It's not a huge stretch from there to assume they are the goddesses' avatars, or at the very least directly serve them.
6. True, but it is widely believed within the fandom that Nayru is the Goddess of Time, as she "gave the spirit of law" to the world, which would thus include the laws of nature and, thus, time. I personally believe Hylia was the Goddess of Time, but Nayru is admittedly the strongest and most widely accepted candidate.
9. Hylia used the Sacred Flames (albeit indirectly) to combat and ultimately defeat Demise. Meanwhile, Hylia's descendant, the Zelda of the Era of Light and Dark, was used (or planned to be) in conjunction with the Dark Rite Flames to ressurect Demise's reincarnation, Ganon. The latter events could indeed be seen as a perversion of the former, as nearly the opposite circumstances and (intended) outcome occur. Setras (talk) 03:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
The biggest problem with this theory is it Sorrow/Grief is not connected to Wisdom. Considering that the main tenet of this theory is that the Dark Rites is a reversal or evil twin of the Goddesses' domains, only one of them is strongly connected (Destruction comes from power/Being destroyed is to not be powerful) one is mildly connected (If you have Courage, you will not despair), but Wisdom to Sorrow/Grief? If it was say, foolishness instead of Sorrow, then this would be a theory with backing. As is, it just feels like attributes caused by evil. Champion of Nayru (talk) 04:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)Champion of Nayru
Fair point. Maybe, as an alternative, the traits could instead be linked to how the antagonists played their part in the Dark Rites. Onox used his strength alone to directly cause chaos and destruction, linking him to power. Veran, however, was more subtle, utilizing time travel, possession, and guile to persuade Ambi to basically destroy her own kingdom, linking her to wisdom. Lastly, though it admittedly wasn't part of their original plan, Twinrova still sacrificed themselves without much hesitation to revive their master, linking them to courage. (They could also be considered courageous in that they were willingly going against the boy who had already defeated their master in ALttP, and weren't afraid to confront him.) Setras (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I think it's a stretch either way.
I don't like the fact that it takes such a big explanation to sell it. If the intention was for the Dark Rites to be anti-Goddesses, surely they would've made it more obvious than that. As it stands, it looks like someone trying to argue an opinion, rather than demonstrate a fact.
In any case, the theory is inadmissible by our Quality Standards on theories. As far as I know, it does not have a reasonable amount of community support or acceptance. — Hylian King [*] 05:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
The main gist of it can easily be tooled back to a trivia note, then, as much of it is very direct; to be destroyed is the opposite of to possess power, to be wracked by despair is the opposite of to be courageous, the flames are lit by flouting the goddesses' respective domains, etc. Making it a theory at all was a concession to alleviate some of the more contentions nature of having it as a trivia note, as well as to solve the situation above about the Sacred Flames connection.
As far as Sorrow and Wisdom goes, the theory didn't claim a link between the names, just the method of lighting it.KrytenKoro (talk) 14:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
This is no evidence for this theory. Moving it to trivia doesn't add more evidence. Please just drop this and edit another page. Champion of Nayru (talk) 16:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC) Champion of Nayru
Mmm, I don't think you read what I suggested, which was not to simply post the same thing in the trivia section. While the theory version is not evidenced as widespread (I would strongly deny that the foundations it uses are unsupported), there is plenty within it that is pretty well undeniable and worth noting. (And believe me, I'm usually the first guy to say "absolutely no trivia".)KrytenKoro (talk) 21:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)